Stefan Daniel: New M and APS-C soon?

[rosuna]

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"... nous en sommes bien conscients et nous allons à moyen terme le remplir avec quelque chose en dessous du M et au dessus du X1. Et je crois au concept des hybrides. Nous en avons d’ailleurs un, avec le M. Tout ce qui lui manque c’est le liveview et peut-être l’autofocus."

 

That is the key response.

[giordano]

Mr Daniel has opened up a whole new area for the drama queens among us: they can agonise about whether, and come up with detailed reasons why, cameras and lenses made by the day shift will be better (or worse) than those made by the night shift.

[hoppyman]

I asked a French photographer friend to take a look at a Bing translation for me. Part only here due to post size limitations.

 

.... The M9 works so well in sales, it is so popular that we thought we would invest our development capabilities on the next generation and not on working to improve a body which is already very good.

 

Can we have an idea of the M9 sales figures?

 

I can say you have to go very far back to find such sales. The last time that such quantities were sold was in the 1960s....

 

 

There are three big trends:

1. many M6 and film bodies users now go digital with the M9,

2. DSLR users turn to the M9 because it is smaller, more sober and more discreet. They do not want be seen throughout the day with a large camera, yet they want the image quality.

3. there are new markets such as China, where Leica has become a iconic brand.

 

 

 

AND THE FUTURE LEICA, THEN?

 

Speaking of a complete range … Everyone is talking about hybrids, many consider them the spiritual heirs of the Leica M.......

 

You have hit it right: when I spoke of a complete range, well, in fact it is not complete. Because there is a gap between the M9 and X 1. From there one can imagine an X 1 with an M bayonet, one can imagine many things … There is a gap, we are well aware of this, and in the mid-term we are going to fill it with something below the M and above the X1. And I believe in the concept of the hybrids. In fact, we have one with the M. All it lacks is liveview, and maybe autofocus.

 

Yes, but autofocus is very new at Leica’s, only recently arrived with the S2. Is this due to some conservatism in very purist customers, but also

internally among Leica?

 

There may have been at a time, but my personal philosophy is that we must open. And even if we shouldn't follow each and every market trend, the main ones we must absolutely follow. Otherwise it is a "dead end". We are not alone in the world, we do not live on the Moon, and as our feet are on the Earth indeed, we must adapt to the major trends of the market, as we adapted to the digital. The autofocus is there and it has its advantages........

 

 

If this is not Leica that releases a hybrid, some day another manufacturer will release a compatible body… Fuji could well have released the X100 in M mount, since the patent is free

 

Yes, a patent normally lasts 20 years, it therefore expired in 74.

 

But If you launch a new camera, it will not necessarily be in M mount.

Perhaps compatible, but if it comes to autofocus it will necessarily be a new mount …

 

There are really plenty of options and…

 

And you are still weighing them today.

 

Exactly.

 

The new Leica is therefore not for tomorrow!

 

It is not for tomorrow, but if one wants to take a slightly larger share of the market, you must offer a body or a system compatible with Mr. Jones’s request.

 

And are you considering partnerships with other brands?

 

(Hesitation)

 

… Or what would this body be 100% "in house"?

 

This has not been decided. But even today we have subcontractors and partners, because we can not do everything ourselves. Try to find a manufacturer of screens in Germany! You will not find one. You have to go to Asia!

 

A partnership with Panasonic already exists, would a Lumix G à la Leica be plausible?

 

With regards to Panasonic, we have decided not to join the Micro 4/3.

 

Why not a compact micro 4/3 at Leica’s?

 

Collaboration with Panasonic works very very well on the Compacts. But on the Digilux 3 it worked moderately. And therefore we won’t join the micro 4/3. For a small company, the M and S systems require already substantial work to maintain and develop. Adding a third mount, for Leica this would be…

 

It would be heavy. Designing again a whole range of lenses with a special mount format … It can be assumed that this compact would instead come with a 3:2 type sensor.

 

Yes I think that the APS - C is a good size.

 

Yes, an APS - C with a M mount, but may be smaller.

 

(No response.) (Laughs)

 

In any case, that’s a hefty schedule for you, between this future hybrid and M which saturates the assembly lines

 

Yes for a small company such as Leica, this is something!

 

 

LEICA IN THE DIGITAL BEAT

 

The M9 works very well. The X 1 sells, a future model is in the works… We visited the factory in Solms two years ago, which already operated at the maximum of its performance. How will you handle all the challenges available to an almost artisanal enterprise?

 

Currently the plant is at the limit of its capacity, the only thing that we can and we will try to do, is to create two lines (shifts?): one for the day and another for the night. But we can obviously ask our employees to work fifteen or eighteen hours. They are tired after eight hours, we are consequently hiring more people for the "night shift". But they need some training. Because we can not pick them up on the street and tell them "Well you're going to assemble a luxury lens", it does not work.

 

It is therefore very difficult to increase the number of our products.

Because they are made by hand, it is a certain impediment.

 

It is the price to pay to remain very high.

 

Yes. And the demand for lenses shows us that there are many new customers. Because existing clients already have their lenses, from the M6 or others, so they buy a new body and that's all. But there is a huge demand for the lenses. It shows us that there is lot of new clients entering the system.

 

And in general the Leica customers are a fairly loyal clientele. Do you feel that it will not be brief, that they are not customers who will come and leave like that?

 

I always say "we have the best customers in the world." Because they are very loyal, but when there’s something they do not like, they say it.

 

Yes, they are very noisy.

 

They speak loudly and I appreciate it very much, because for another brand they perhaps will resell and leave without a word. But with Leica as they are passionate they say "I don't like that", "This must be improved", which makes my life easier, it is "market research" for free!

 

To return to the development cycles story, how will things unfold for Leica in the medium term? Compared to the pace of film, digital has it in months, three years for the most sustainable products. In short, far from the 10 or 15 years’ lifespan a high range film camera enjoyed.

 

Our M6 held for 18 years, which looks surrealistic today.

 

 

As a result, do you at Leica, rework your entire pace of life?

 

Yes, even if we are not full steam competing with our Japanese friends, we are nonetheless part of the world of digital photography. Life cycles must be respected in the digital world, that’s a fact. Three years is a very good life cycle, from the M8 to the M9, it lasted 3 years. And perhaps for the M9 will last a little longer. But we are well aware that we cannot sell an M9 for 5-6 years, that’s sure.

 

Are you then telling us there will be an M10 at the next Photokina!

 

No. comment. (laughs)

[AlanG]

I'll have a pint of whatever it is that you're drinking, Alan.

 

Oh, I made a mistake and probably confused you. The format will only be 30mmx45mm so it should be no problem to make it. In reality, it sounds to me like Mr. Daniels is probably describing an APS camera similar to the one I outlined.

[wildlightphoto]

I always say "we have the best customers in the world." Because they are very loyal, but when there’s something they do not like, they say it.

 

Yes, they are very noisy.

 

They speak loudly and I appreciate it very much, because for another brand they perhaps will resell and leave without a word. But with Leica as they are passionate they say "I don't like that", "This must be improved", which makes my life easier, it is "market research" for free!

 

 

What's the R solution?

 

Is this loud enough?

[Archiver]

Interesting that the M9 sale figures are the highest M sales they have seen since the M6 or the M4! It is rather exciting to be around for this resurgence in Leica sales and popularity.

[mmradman]

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Interesting that the M9 sale figures are the highest M sales they have seen since the M6 or the M4! It is rather exciting to be around for this resurgence in Leica sales and popularity.

 

Just the proof that when you bring to the market what market really wants market responds.

 

As much as M line was popular over many decades it reached the dead end with the advent of digital, sale of few M7/MPs was not the way to sustain the business.

 

What was needed for the brakethrough was digital full frame. Mr Danieli is very clear how Leica reads market as it is today and what next development is likely to be "if one wants to take a slightly larger share of the market, you must offer a body or a system compatible with Mr. Jones’s request" - thanks to decent translation we, hopefully, can put wild speculations to rest.

[hamey]

What's the R solution?

 

Is this loud enough?

 

Thanks Doug and Hoppy, I do approve.

 

But it's a pity that Solms doesn't show the same amount of LOYALITY TO IT'S LONG TIME "R" customers as we did to Leica.

 

I for one, and many others have spoken loudly on this forum about our plight.

 

We are not asking for much, here is some more free advice.

 

Give the SL / SL2 or M8/9 body to the CHINESE, tell them to fit a sensor and battery as the M9, this will maintain compatabilty,most of us only need the basic simple body, the M9 proved that.

But whats important we want is a top notch view finder and USE ALL OUR "R" lenses.

 

So why not do what the aircraft manufactores do, ask us what we want, Implement a design then work out the cost and a time frame for delivery.

 

If insuffient sales or interest are not met , then scrap the idea of an R SOLUTION.

 

Remember, if Boeing did not get suffient orders for the 747 Boeing wouldn't have gone ahead with it

Thank goodness for juan Trippe because in 1966 he ordered 25 aircraft at $525,000,000 for Pan American

And now it's become the greatest aircraft of all time.

 

 

If the "R" Digital solution meets my requirments, I would be happy to order and forward you a deposit.

 

 

Ken.

[lct]

As suggested above, the "R-solution" appears to be the future APS-C camera. Better than nothing. Those needing FF will use a Japanese DSLR the same way as they do currently.

[jaapv]

If insuffient sales or interest are not met , then scrap the idea of an R SOLUTION.

 

Err... This is exactly what happened in 2009....

[wildlightphoto]

Err... This is exactly what happened in 2009....

 

What happened in 2009 was the company's management paniced. Since then the sales of M and S have been far beyond Leica's projections and I suspect sales of an R-compatible solution will likewise exceed expectations.

 

Roll over and play dead, assume "everyone" has gone on to a competing dSLR system, and you will never see an adequate solution. If we don't tell Leica we want something better than 12- or 14-bit AA-filtered CMOS, tunnel-vision viewfinders and 1950-style manual lenses, what incentive do they have to produce an R solution?

[jaapv]

No they didn't panic - they made a design study - quite elaborate, a large part of it was used for the S2-, did a market exploration and a sales/pricing/cost survey and the figures simply did not add up.

 

They felt - and rightly so, I think, that a 6000 Euro camera without AF could not compete with the DSLRs on the market, nor a 8000 Euro AF body. I was there in Solms, like quite a few other forum members when the end of the R was announced and there was not a trace of panic. Just a strategic decision.

[wildlightphoto]

No they didn't panic - they made a design study - quite elaborate, a large part of it was used for the S2-, did a market exploration and a sales/pricing/cost survey and the figures simply did not add up.

 

Their assumptions that led to figures not adding up included sales projections. As we have seen with M and S, their sales projections were extremely pessimistic. It was a fear of low sales that led them to calculate that things didn't add up.

[AlanG]

most of us only need the basic simple body, the M9 proved that.

 

Ken.

 

I think hoping that the Chinese or anyone else can or would make a simple R body is a pipe dream. It won't appeal to a large enough market to justify its development and manufacturing. Mr. Daniel is pretty clear that Leica needs to catch up and sell cameras that have the technology that most users will expect in the future.

 

They are lucky that the M9 has given them some breathing room to reposition themselves to do this. Eventually the M will have live view and a good clip on EVF or hybrid viewfinder to provide a solution for R users. Whether this is "good enough" or soon enough we'll have to see.

[jaapv]

Their assumptions that led to figures not adding up included sales projections. As we have seen with M and S, their sales projections were extremely pessimistic. It was a fear of low sales that led them to calculate that things didn't add up.

So they should have gambled the company on a throw of the dice? 1000 S2s a year seemed extremely optimistic back then.

[AlanG]

Dr Andreas Kaufmann, dismissing the cellphone at a 'Decisive Moment in Paris'

"This is not a camera. Technically these devices are never able to shoot a good picture"

 

Consider that one of the persistent knocks of 35mm film from some photographers, editors, and press people was that the quality was not "good enough."

 

As for an R compatible body... If the demand is there, I don't see why an enterprising individual or small company (Leitax, Novoflex, Zoerk) could not modify an existing FF DSLR by changing the mount, shaving the mirror if necessary, and perhaps build in a small servo control for the auto diaphragm. (Years ago Zoerk showed me an adapter that had electronic linkage that allowed Rollei 6x6 lenses to be used on a Nikon or Canon.)

 

This would be a lot simpler than building an entire camera, but I suspect there isn't even enough potential market for a company or individual to risk the R&D to do this.

[jaapv]

I think hoping that the Chinese or anyone else can or would make a simple R body is a pipe dream. It won't appeal to a large enough market to justify its development and manufacturing. Mr. Daniel is pretty clear that Leica needs to catch up and sell cameras that have the technology that most users will expect in the future.

 

They are lucky that the M9 has given them some breathing room to reposition themselves to do this. Eventually the M will have live view and a good clip on EVF or hybrid viewfinder to provide a solution for R users. Whether this is "good enough" or soon enough we'll have to see.

It would be a perfect camera for me; in the bush I always struggle with redundancy backup, as I carry two systems, M and R. A body that forms a bridge between the two would be perfect

[pico]

I'm figuring they'll surprise everyone again by making a 36x48 live view AF zoomed optical viewfinder/electronically linked rangefinder body with a superimposed switchable EVF that uses S2 lenses but is somehow only a bit larger than the M9 and can also take, M, R, Hassy, Mamiya, Nikon, and Canon lenses.

 

That's a compelling vision, however it would compete with the M and S, would probably be more expensive than the S. A larger, more expensive camera competing with their existing line might just kill the company.

[pico]

They are lucky that the M9 has given them some breathing room to reposition themselves to do this. Eventually the M will have live view and a good clip on EVF or hybrid viewfinder to provide a solution for R users. Whether this is "good enough" or soon enough we'll have to see.

 

An electronic visoflex?

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[mmradman]

An electronic visoflex?

 

Good way of putting it, only this digital visoflex is internal.