Stefan Daniel: New M and APS-C soon?

[lct]

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An M lens is a lens using an M mount isn't it so why could not it have a motor for AF?

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[ho_co]

LCT, I was responding specifically to

Perhaps they are thinking of new M lenses that are small and will only cover APS C ....

 

 

Leica did produce the C lenses, which had an M mount but weren't fully M compatible, but I don't think Leica would produce a lens with M mount with less than full-frame coverage.

 

There's no place to add contacts for AF paraphernalia to the M mount. The glass is already cramped for space in a lot of today's lenses.

 

I think one could go the other direction and build a larger mount for autofocus and autoaperture contacts, and then add an adapter to fit inside it to accept M mount (similar to the screw-to-bayonet adapters). But that would mean a bigger mount for a smaller format. That sounds inelegant, but Leica might pull it off.

 

Anyway, the M camera is defined by its rangefinder (that's what M means ), so an M lens to me is generally a rangefinder-coupled lens, not just a lens with an M mount. (Exceptions like some of the non-Leica wides and the Hologon are minor to me.)

[EJohnE]

I am a total ignoramus on technical matters, so this is probably stupid....

I use R lenses with adaptors on both Olympus and Canon bodies. A couple of those adaptors are chipped. Why could not the mount of any new Leica camera, itself be chipped and movable? Say, set each lens to infinity, and the mount be useable to confirm focus.

 

Back to the Luddites' asylum.

John.

[adan]

lct - study a cross-section of M lenses, and figure out where you could fit a motor. .

 

More seriously - an M lens is more than the mount. The "M-ness" of the lens also includes the solid brass/aluminum construction and the compact size for a given focal length and aperture and performance level. Not to mention that an M lens must be usable on an M3 (at least).

 

Lightening (plasticizing) the lens build to allow fast AF, or making the lens bigger to squeeze in a motor, or compromising the optical design to allow for internal focusing - which is how Nikon and Canon changed their lenses to accomodate AF - would all reduce the unique solid mechanical character of the M lenses.

 

At some risk - note what happened to Contax when they tried to Canonify their main camera line to AF.

 

I'm glad you posted the Daniel quotes - although there seems to be a contradiction between 1) "New AF camera" and 3) "Not adding a new lens line to M and S". As usual, Leica clarifies and obscurifies in the same breath.

 

My take-away is that: the M10 will be FF and fully(solely) manual in focusing - and apparently ready for PhotoKina 2012.

 

An extension of the X1 will allow interchangeable lenses on an APS-C EVF camera (NOT the "M10"), and apparently Leica may be planning to use the M mount for that purpose. I maintain that that still implies a "new" lens line (M-AF, X-AF, M-APS) regardless of how Leica tries to spin it. An AF-Nikkor is not an Nikkor-AIS, even though they share the same mount. And Nikon, at least, was clearheaded in making that distinction.

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[lct]

...An extension of the X1 will allow interchangeable lenses on an APS-C EVF camera (NOT the "M10"), and apparently Leica may be planning to use the M mount for that purpose. I maintain that that still implies a "new" lens line (M-AF, X-AF, M-APS) regardless of how Leica tries to spin it...

Yes or more simply a couple of APS zooms complementing current FF primes and using the M mount as well. Hard to refer to a new lens line then but it's just a matter of words.

[NZDavid]

Methinks this resembles Chinese whispers! Way I read it, Herr Daniel is definitely talking about two cameras, a new M and a new APS X1-type camera with interchangeable lenses. As others have rightly suggested, the puzzling aspect is what lenses it will take. Apart from the M and the S (and the already extant R), Leica also produces a DG lens for the Panasonic G cameras. I am not sure to what extent Lumix and Leica lenses are related.

[luigi bertolotti]

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Is the current X1 size compatible with a M bayonet mount ? (supposed the EVF will be of the "accessory" type), Imho, if they succeed in keeping the X1 size, APS-C can be, as Daniel says, a "good compromise"; if they cannot keep the X1 size and need more height, I think it would be better to use the M8 sensor size... not a great difference, probably, but a way to distinguish from "the crowd".

[lct]

Here's a more complete quotation in response to a question about Leica's partnership with the Micro 4/3 consortium.

 

Stefan Daniel: « Nous y trouvons aujourd'hui notre compte en ce qui concerne le développement d'optiques à destination de boîtiers existants, chez Panasonic notamment. Mais nous n'avons pas l'intention de proposer de boîtier Leica autour de cette monture. La marque possède déjà deux gammes optiques, les M et les S, en développer une troisième serait compliqué. Et le format APS-C me semble offrir le meilleur compromis en matière de taille de capteur. »

 

Free translation: We are taking currently advantage of it as regards development of lenses aimed at existing bodies, with Panasonic in particular. But we do not intend to offer a Leica body around this mount. The brand has two lens ranges already, M and S, developping a third one would be complicated. And the APS-C format seems to me to offer the best compromise as regards sensor size.

[luigi bertolotti]

Uhm... if this insistence on the problems of establishing a 3rd lens line would mean that the APS C with interchangable lenses (M mount ?) will be equipped with "Panaleica" lenses... I think it will be not such a smart move...

 

(P.S. : you quote "Rèponses Photo" of August 2011 ... is it already out ?)

[lct]

Uhm... if this insistence on the problems of establishing a 3rd lens line would mean that the APS C with interchangable lenses (M mount ?) will be equipped with "Panaleica" lenses... I think it will be not such a smart move... (P.S. : you quote "Rèponses Photo" of August 2011 ... is it already out ?)

Some PanaLeica lenses are very good indeed but why not after all if the body fits 'true' Leica lenses as well?

Yes the mag is out. For those interested:

Réponses Photo

B 804 - 60732

Sainte Geneviève Cedex

France

Phone nr: +33 344 624 355

(i don't know their email address sorry)

[okram]

How about an M10 that has a moving sensor?

User has to manually focus the existing M lens, but the sensor has cca 1mm movement rear/front to additionally auto focus.

When the lens is focused via rangefinder patch, it can be done so roughly and the af takes over to fine focus on the patch area. That would also mean easy (user) rear/front focus correction (very often cca 0,01mm).

 

That would also mean a hole in the center of the shutter , or some new complicated solutions to make this work, problems with parallax, but this could be something that could mean a solution to problems with existing design of focusing system (anything longer like 75 and 90 are very hard to focus wide open, even closed down)...

 

Any opinions?

[luigi bertolotti]

Some PanaLeica lenses are very good indeed but why not after all if the body fits 'true' Leica lenses as well?

 

I think that an APS C body, as a host for traditional M lenses, would be appealing only for existing M lenses owners... they are too costly to appeal buyers of a APS C camera even if Leica branded : things would be someway different, I think, if they provide, initially, just 2-3 "real" Leica lenses of a new breed (AF - APC format coverage only)... if such a system catches on, they could in time broaden the lens offer with primes... and establish a system with a role of its own, under M line but wwll positioned.

[rosuna]

lct - study a cross-section of M lenses, and figure out where you could fit a motor. .

 

 

You can place contacts on the mount, just as Pentax does with their K-mount in the reflex cameras.

 

I doubt Leica would go for Summilux designs, if they develop AF M lenses. I would bet for Summarit or Summicron lenses, but with a larger barrel than the current Summarit/Summicron units. The size of the lens is not that important because you will see thought the lens with a EVF.

 

You can use current M lenses on the new body, but not the other way (AF lenses on a rangefinder body). Leica does not need to build a complete system of AF lenses and a few units would be enough. This would make sense if the format is 24x36.

 

So the only thing I do not feel comfortable with is the "suggested" format of the new camera: APS-C implies partial compatibility with the M and R systems, and very strong competition in the marketplace. 24x36 may be too demanding, from a technical point of view though. I see that as the key problem.

[lct]

I think that an APS C body, as a host for traditional M lenses, would be appealing only for existing M lenses owners... they are too costly to appeal buyers of a APS C camera even if Leica branded : things would be someway different, I think, if they provide, initially, just 2-3 "real" Leica lenses of a new breed (AF - APC format coverage only)... if such a system catches on, they could in time broaden the lens offer with primes... and establish a system with a role of its own, under M line but wwll positioned.

Summarits are not that expensive but your idea sounds good to me. Would make a third lens line though unless Pana launches an APS system as well.

[eleskin]

From what I have read, the Contax AX autofocus was a great camera. With todays technology, why not have an M mount that has a sensor that moves to focus. This camera would also be great with Leica R lenses, offering the best R solution, as well as any other 35mm lens ever made for ANY camera!!!

[stunsworth]

why not have an M mount that has a sensor that moves to focus

 

The body would need to be substantially thicker to accommodate the sensor movement.

[adan]

The Contax AX autofocus was so "great" that the company went out of business. Doesn't sound like my idea of success.

 

The AX was thicker than some of today's "blimpo" FF DSLRs: http://www.ixbt.com/digimage/m39/contaxax.jpg

[bill]

I was a Contax user in the past, both SLR and G series. The AX was a great camera, but unreliable. The shutter crate moved on ceramic rods (Kyocera, remember) and was manufactured to a high level of precision but it was too easy to knock out of alignment and it was, as Steve says, the size of a small mobile home. I loved my RX and would have loved to have seen the AX work, but it was not to be.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Hallo,

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[okram]

Yes, but what if it moved just for small focus adjustment, after you have manually focused roughly with RF patch?

That would require very small (and fast) movement. Plus it would give an opportunity for the user to adjust, mainly smaller, misalignments of the lens-sensor distance to its preference (lets say 0,01mm for the 35cron to fine tune focus at infinity).

 

This would also remove the requirement for the rangefinder to be more precise than it is now- especially if some higher res sensor shows up.

 

This is, let say, 1mm movement ability for the sensor in total, (this does not necessarily mean a 1mm thicker body at the same time)

 

Just an idea.

[janki]

It will certainly be some threads about this topic in the next years to come. I find it very exciting.

 

As I understand, Leica has indicated that we will see the contours of an entirely new camera system about a year from now, during the Photokina 2012.

 

But, as Andy says, it's typical Leica to provide information, - for at the next crossroads to obscure the same information.

 

Actually, I think they are struggling significantly with to determine the future direction of which digital camera industry is moving.

 

Few would disagree that Leica's strength lies in the unique quality of the lenses, optical as well as mechanical.

 

In fact require digital photographing higher quality of the lenses than which is the case with film photography.

 

The world is not yet there, that we are able to shoot images without lenses.

Investment in the lenses may after all be seen as a one-time investment.

Therefore, it is worth paying extra for high quality optics, even if it runs a bit of time before the system can be called complete.

 

But I think that it is absolutely necessary to bring down the price of the future camera bodies, simply because they technically will have shorter and shorter life span.

 

And this is my point; - It is necessary for Leica to find a camera format that justify making significant investments in the optics, at the same time as this small computer with a sensor mounted behind the lenses do not cost more than it is economical possible to renew it, lets say every third years.