wattsy Posted July 13, 2011 Share #21 Posted July 13, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Perhaps some buyers prefer being the first ones to open the box? I suspect that's the case. There is a lot of apparent obsessive compulsive behaviour amongst Leica buyers and some dealers will be wary about taking anything out of the packaging. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Hi wattsy, Take a look here M9-P with LCD misalignment. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted July 13, 2011 Share #22 Posted July 13, 2011 What's the point of buying expensive stuff to an authorised dealer if the latter doesn't simply check if it works normally? None of mine would simply think of presenting me a body that they've not checked out previously. At least i hope so . They know that i'm expecting this though. Perhaps some buyers prefer being the first ones to open the box? Good point, and it was my Leica Dealer who saved me from buying and then having to return a Super Elmar recently (as part of the general recall), their phone call saved a lot of time and anguish. I'm happy that my Leica Dealer is interested enough in what I'm buying to have a rummage in the box and make sure everything is OK. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 13, 2011 Share #23 Posted July 13, 2011 It's a shame that such a fault leaves QC - I wonder what's actually misaligned? The board? I don't think it's too much to expect Leica to invest some money into the Leitz-Park II and relocate the camera-assembly back there from Portugal. A 6000€-Leica should be assembled by properly trained (36-42 months in general) and paid workers - just like their lenses are. An hour costs about 30-40€, the assembly shouldn't take more than 15h - they can pay for that and will save secondary costs because they don't have to keep a second fab running, several thousand km and language barriers apart. It's always more efficient to run a 1000 people fab than two with 500 people each. They had the "great" idea to offshore it to low-wage-workers - it didn't work, it never does in the long run. "Then why has my M9 got "made in Germany" engraved on the back? Or are the parts made in Germany and assembled in Portugal?" "No - Portugal makes the bodyshells. The tops and complete assembly are done in Solms. The sensor is by Kodak and made somewhere, probably in Asia." The sensor is made by Kodak in Rochester, NY.The display is sourced from one of the few Asian suppliers as well as some ICs, the shutter is made by Seiko in Japan. But the majority of the suppliers is located in Germany. I highly doubt the Portugese site is capable of Mg die-cast processes or any of the precision machining involved in the outer parts (they have some "traditional" M-camera-processes because the machines were brought from Wetzlar/Ontario). The final-assembly done in Solms bei Leica itself hardly justifies "Made in Germany". A Chinese company recently tried to market German-polished knives as "Made in Germany" - of course they were sentenced and are no longer allowed to make this claim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 13, 2011 Share #24 Posted July 13, 2011 When I bought my MP, the dealer hadn't opened the box, but I did in his shop. I wouldn't walk out of a shop, having just paid thousands for an object, not knowing that, as far as one can tell in that environment, everything is working as it should. If it were a digital camera, I would shoot some shots with my lenses and ask to see them on the dealer's computer. I wouldn't think that any dealer would object to that. Can't be done if you buy mail order or over the net of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted July 13, 2011 Share #25 Posted July 13, 2011 I highly doubt the Portugese site is capable of Mg die-cast processes I doubt it too. In fact I'd be rather surprised if they made their own die-castings either in Portugal or Solms: much better outsourced to specialists. or any of the precision machining involved in the outer parts (they have some "traditional" M-camera-processes because the machines were brought from Wetzlar/Ontario). In 21st-century designs that should all be done by CNC machines, which can be located just about anywhere and don't need extraordinarily skilled operators. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 13, 2011 Share #26 Posted July 13, 2011 The metal bashing processes are done by one of Dr Kaufmann's other companies, in Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 13, 2011 Share #27 Posted July 13, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) It should be thought of in the same way as the slightly uneven stitching in a hand made suit No, seriously, I think whoever is in charge of QC at Solms needs a kick up the arse. Wonky LCD's, aperture rings fitted the wrong way round, there's been a few such cases reported here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 13, 2011 Share #28 Posted July 13, 2011 "Then why has my M9 got "made in Germany" engraved on the back? Or are the parts made in Germany and assembled in Portugal?""No - Portugal makes the bodyshells. The tops and complete assembly are done in Solms. The sensor is by Kodak and made somewhere, probably in Asia." The sensor is made by Kodak in Rochester, NY.The display is sourced from one of the few Asian suppliers as well as some ICs, the shutter is made by Seiko in Japan. But the majority of the suppliers is located in Germany. I highly doubt the Portugese site is capable of Mg die-cast processes or any of the precision machining involved in the outer parts (they have some "traditional" M-camera-processes because the machines were brought from Wetzlar/Ontario). It is dated, as the tops and bottoms are made in Germany now , by Uwe Weller, but basically this description of the factory in Posrtugal is still more or less correct: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/discus_e/messages/2/Leica_Portugal_Factory_Visit_by_Rui-23852.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 13, 2011 Share #29 Posted July 13, 2011 My Leica R3 was made in Portugal. It was perfect the day I got it, and it's remained so ever since. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted July 13, 2011 Share #30 Posted July 13, 2011 as I rememeber a good deal of the assembly, and all the final testing and callibration occurs in Germany? To assume the problem lies with Portuguese workers frankly stinks. A slur is a slur. Solms should have picked it up- and having watched the production videos I can't believe they didn't. The camera is handled all the way down the line from table to table and bench to bench. Seems more likely the bonding has failed post manufacture and the screen has moved somehow. Either case is worrying though... I am hoping they have improved the strap lug process on the new m9-p's. I was also hoping that as production moves on wrinkles would be ironed out and the process would become better. As with the perception that later (post 1 million serial) M3's are considered the best due to skill of the manufacture developed over time in the factory workers... It remains my hope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eziomi Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share #31 Posted July 13, 2011 I suspect that's the case. There is a lot of apparent obsessive compulsive behaviour amongst Leica buyers and some dealers will be wary about taking anything out of the packaging. To replay to Ian and the others on the same issue, please note that I wasn't not the first opening the box, the dealer open it and show the M9-P to some others clients before I went to the store to take it. Obviously he didn't check the camera with his battery or with another spare battery. EM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 13, 2011 Share #32 Posted July 13, 2011 ... the shutter is made by Seiko in Japan.... Isn't it Copal, not Seiko? Or are they the same? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 13, 2011 Share #33 Posted July 13, 2011 I worked in a camera store many years ago. As far as I recall we NEVER opened boxes to check equipment before selling it. Of course sometimes the customer would do so, or if it was the only one in stock then it would be opened to show to prospective customers. Not the same as ex demo stock, but some would insist on a new and unopened box. Can't please everyone. I always remember the advice the boss gave me, get the goods into the customers hands and they'll most probably buy it. He was right too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdtaylor Posted July 13, 2011 Share #34 Posted July 13, 2011 I know I'll regret posting this, but this is the first LCD that I have ever heard of that was misaligned. If this is true, and being that the Dealer is replacing it, isn't this making a mountain out of a molehill. Yes, and of course I know the price. On another subject raised in the thread, my dealer called me and said they had an M9 available in grey- I wanted black. I said to hold it and I would take a look, for at that point I had not seen a gray M9. When I got there, they made me put on gloves, then they carefully opened the box (he in gloves also), and when opened, it was actually black, even though the outside carton said gray. Truly the Dealer never opened the box. Needless to say, I took off the insipid gloves, picked up the camera after I said I would take it and actually had the nerve to put a lens on the camera (which I brought), as they watch in amazement . They had a Noct at that point, but wouldn't even open it to show me, even though they offered me a $1,000 off in cost if I bought it with the M9. To this day I have never seen a Noct in person. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 13, 2011 Share #35 Posted July 13, 2011 Find us a video of one of your Canons being assembled and then we can judge the difference. What the heck does this have to do with anything? I think when it comes to cameras, virtually all parts are machine made. Then some parts are machine assembled, where possible and cost effective, and other parts are hand assembled. If anything, I would expect things that are machine assembled to have less variation than those which are hand assembled. QC and testing is usually performed at various stages by machines and/or by humans. I don't know how much Leica relies on the assemblers or supervisors to make decisions and modifications rather than just make the normal adjustments. Regardless, I don't see why people living in Germany (do they have to be ethnic Germans?) would be more capable of learning how to do this than anyone else. Do you care if an ethnic Portugese, German, Japanese, Chinese, Swiss, Thai, Turk, or some other person assembled your camera or lens even in a German factory? It is the overall product that we get to judge not some kind of special hand made attributes that only Germans can put into it. What could those possibly be anyway? Since you asked... I haven't seen any videos that show how various Canon cameras are assembled, but at least their higher end lenses are hand assembled similarly to how Leica's are assembled in the Leica videos. I bet their higher volume of lens production leads to more automation in making the the glass elements and all of the barrel pieces, etc. And I'd suspect there is more automated assembly of higher volume lenses. But what difference does this make as long as the end product is high quality, reliable, and does the job well? Canon 500 f4 assembly video: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark2 Posted July 18, 2011 Share #36 Posted July 18, 2011 Looks like the QC or Germans are deteriorating. They need the Americans to teach them engineering Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albireo_double Posted July 18, 2011 Share #37 Posted July 18, 2011 What Leica needs is better ability to service its products in the major markets, without customers having to send their cameras and lenses to Solms and wait for weeks for them to come back, delayed by customs on the way, etc. It is not good enough when you buy a Leica camera to "reward" yourself to lose the joy when you find a fault and have to wait. Leica buyers have every right to expect perfection (that's what they are buying) - both in terms of product and service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedroelias Posted July 20, 2011 Share #38 Posted July 20, 2011 It's unfortunate that the camera is made is Portugal which simply does not have the same track record of precision products as does Germany. It may be an OK place to take a vacation but I wouldn't willingly buy anything made there, though I did buy a Portuguese straw hat once. The mice in my barn ate it. That said, a minimal amount of final assembly/adjustment is carried out in Solms so that they can claim it's "Made in Germany" and the misalignment should have been caught by whoever "worked" on this camera. Truth is, Leica is much better at making lenses than cameras and they should subcontract out camera production to someone who can do it properly, like Panasonic. I agree though. Do I get misaligned LCDs on a Nikon? No I don't, and neither should you on a Leica M9. mark, your ignorance about Portugal and Leica is amazing. I hope your photography is better. pedro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Marelli Posted July 22, 2011 Share #39 Posted July 22, 2011 The Red Dot on my M9 was installed crooked. I like to think of it as a camera with some hip hop swagger. But it did beg the question,"Did anyone look at this thing before it left Solms?" Everyone has an off day I suppose. Hope you got that LCD fixed. Adam Adam Marelli PhotoAdam Marelli Photo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted July 22, 2011 Share #40 Posted July 22, 2011 Find us a video of one of your Canons being assembled and then we can judge the difference. Canon's low-priced high-volume products no doubt involve a lot more automation. Their high-priced low-volume products involve a lot of skilled labor and assembly by hand -- I'm not sure it's so different than what Leica does. The video Alan posted actually has 3 parts - Part 1: Part 2: Part 3: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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