mjh Posted May 31, 2011 Share #241 Posted May 31, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) My 2004 Digilux 2 has a better screen. 5k more pixels an what is more important it is trans reflective something the M8/8.2/9 screens are not. Actually the Digilux 2 display has less pixels (211.000 – not that it makes much of a difference). Its EVF hat 235.000 pixels, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Hi mjh, Take a look here Leica M9-P ????. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tappan Posted May 31, 2011 Share #242 Posted May 31, 2011 Does anybody recognize the leatherette grip? Is it faux vulcanite? Thanks... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neli Posted May 31, 2011 Share #243 Posted May 31, 2011 Quite happy to. Not believe two people that is. Add a third and you can tag that one on the list as well. Just because two of you have stepped forward and said you hit perfect focus every time with your Noctilux's doesn't make it so. Likewise, being a politician doesn't make you an honest guy. Kind of like being the quality police doesn't make you happy. If you're trying to tell me that you shot 1600 frames in total and none of them are slightly out with a Noct/RF combination... sorry Stand in front of me with the camera and bang off frame after frame of someone's portrait and hit the eye in focus every time then I may sit up and take notice, but that isn't likely to happen now, is it? Sorry, I have never and will never bang portraits, we might have different techniques here. I do see how you'd miss some shots like that. Seriously though, what you consider acceptable levels of focus may well differ from mine. I've had similar discussions with a number of photographers who've tried to convince me some of their images were sharp at the critical point. They haven't been in some cases, so it's a matter of taste and what you consider acceptable. Even slight bodily movement on a portrait wide open will introduce shift, so in my book the odds are seriously stacked against your claim. Can't be proved easily, so it's a moot point. Congrats on your exhibition though Thanks, went better than expected. An assumption I want to clear up, I'm a landscape photographer, I rarely shoot people at 0.95, I find the Bokeh of the Nocti causes too much separation of the critical focus point, let's assume the eye, to the extent that some of my models eyes have actually fallen out. Yes, and you may have a point on this, but not at the expense of the LCD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 1, 2011 Share #244 Posted June 1, 2011 Makes perfect business sense to alienate your core customer base in one fell swoop! Interesting point - what is Leica's core customer base? Before the M8/9, who was it? R camera owners? M camera owners? Existing owners buying second/third/fourth cameras? It is a serious question. The M digital cameras appear to have widened Leica's customer base considerably. Who should they be aiming their new M product lines at? For diehard film users, they have a choice of M7 & MP. For those who think the M9 is perfect as a concept, with some room for improvement in areas, an M9-P would keep them happy. If Leica offers an M which provides a lot of the things that some digital enthusiasts want, why should that alienate those who don't like change ... Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrewer Posted June 1, 2011 Share #245 Posted June 1, 2011 I do only take my M8.2 into war, the MP clearly is for dinner parties, I don't even load film. It is too cool, to snap away at those parties to show off - film only slows you down (the loading is too complicated anyway - no auto loading on the MP). Nice thing about using the MP on those parties is, how silent that camera is … I managed, to start to brass the tip of my thumb lever already (or what is that thingy called, you have to pull all the time before you can push the button again?). I also found a new, more expensive hood for the 35mm, which is even better to show off now. Welcome to the forum btw ;-) :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted June 1, 2011 Share #246 Posted June 1, 2011 The difference is, I'm quoting facts, not opinion. Leica's financial situation 1996-2009 is a matter of record. Read their annual results. Not opinion. Leica changed financial situation after the elimination of the R line is a matter of record. Read their annual and quarterly results. Not opinion. "This is not a blunder - where it counts." OK, perhaps opinion, I guess there may be a universe in which moving from losses to profits IS a blunder - is that your opinion? "forgive me for not drinking your Leica-koolaid that says they are perfect ..." Find the word "perfect" in my post and I'll buy you a DMR. But don't worry about forgiveness - I treat all unsupported opinion as "noise" anyway. "It's interesting though how someone up the Leica chain agreed with me...." - Ahh, the anonymous "someone." Got a name, quotation and source? Wow. You really are full of yourself aren't you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted June 1, 2011 Share #247 Posted June 1, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wow. You really are full of yourself aren't you? I don't think "full of oneself" is a term I would use re Mr. Piper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 1, 2011 Share #248 Posted June 1, 2011 No it isn't adequate. Not familiar with the Nikon, so can't comment. I only know that start-up lags behind other cameras I have used, some of which are older than the M9. You must have a defective M9 then. Seriously, when I hold my M8.2 in front of me, switching the camera on, raising the camera to me eye (even extremely quick), the camera's meter is fully operational, I can focus, set exposure and just shoot. If the M8.2 / M9 would have a proper ON/OFF switch, I could in fact switch the camera on and off for every single shot without missing a beat! Don't argue, that I am a landscape shooter, setting up a few minutes for a shot - look at my website or flickr and you understand, that a big part of what I do, is candid shooting in low light. I have never missed a shot due to start up time. _ I am completely with you regarding a slower feel of the digital M, but I get the feeling, that you are in fact held up by an early frustration about the digital M's overall "sluggish feel" (card write times, buffer filling, shutter release lag, being locked out of certain operations during camera is busy, sequential 1:1 rendering of images, when zooming, etc…). I have been too … well in the beginning of using the M8.2 at least. I was used to lightning fast operation and no fuss from the Nikon D3 (this camera really never slows down the shooter - it always goes in every operation or menu). After getting used to the M though (does not mean, stomach the negatives and live with it, but learning, how to use the M8.2 more efficiently), I find, that in fact the M8.2 is a more immediate and fast camera to use than the film Ms! The start up time annoys you - don't start up the camera! Leave it on (actually, I often do during a day's/ night's shooting). Annoyed by the slow image rendering - don't render images! I have the LCD permanently off, as it is useless anyway - in it's current status and in any future potential high res version. People, who constantly stomp on the resolution numbers of screens really are not different to say: "Man that iPhone 3 screen sucks - my pictures look all dull - the iPad looks soo much better, buooy!" - while not recognizing, that a low res, reflective picture on an iPad looks in fact crude to ANY real print from standard 8x10 up. I don't buy the more res screen, more MP sensor crap. It doesn't make you pictures any better, nor does it allow you, to represent them in any better way on the back of the camera. Annoyed by slow card writing times and full buffers - shoot DNG only (JPGs are crappy anyway for any other use than small prints, web or news media). … I use the digital M exactly the same as a film M. I can shoot quicker, if I must. I get more shots (way more shots) out of the camera, before having to open the bottom plate (about 200 − 400). The battery and SD card is even easier to load than film. Even compared to a film M with motor or Leicavit, the digital one is quicker (if quicker is, what you're after). … Okay... we'll just beg to differ in a big way on this one. Not sure what 'valuable real estate' you're referring to which the LCD is taking away. What else would you use this area for? - ISO dial - nose grease friendly leatherette (left eye shooter with middle european big nose) - better buttons (slightly recessed, but bigger, to be able to still feel and press them quickly, but without accidentally pressing them often, as they are now) You say in one breath that you appreciate the valuable settings and status info, but in the same sentence you don't see the need for the LCD. Somewhat confusing and contradictory, unless I'm reading your meaning incorrectly. What I use the LCD for at the moment: - changing ISO (often, no I won't use AutoISO) - formatting SD card after download and backup to Mac - … seriously, I really, really tried, to find a third essential use - couldn't find one. What an LCD is nice to have for, but not essential to me: - check focus (I do from time to time in critical situations - I could easily revert to film shooting technique here, which is to me an even better way of improving my own technique - trust me, you know, when you nailed focus with a wide open lens, when you did a shot most of the time) If you are unsure in a certain situation - shoot again. If shoot again is no option - relax, that's life, don't sweat the "arrgh, didn't get the focus, what should I do, what should I do - it is wasted valuable time in your left hours on planet earth to do so ;-) . What I hate the LCD for: - stands out on the back of the camera, reducing eyepoint - robs focus (my focus on more important things than an LCD) - makes many people ask "Can you show me the photo?" for which one often should kindly respond, "Sure!", knowing, that the LCD rendering looks infinitely more crappy than a nice print of the same frame - nosey issues - ergonomic issues, mentioned above (buttons, etc…) Especially on a rangefinder, where accurate focusing at shallow DoF is tricky at best. Leads me on nicely to your next comment... It's not ;-) Finding out ones own limitations and understanding technical limitations of the gear + sorting any problems of the same is the most tricky part - focussing is the easy part. The RF is a lot, and I mean A LOT better suited to focus thin DOF subjects with super speed lenses than a ground glass or AF for me. I hate the slow modern AF glass (~ f1.4), Nikon throws out for it's slow focus. I hate the modern DSLR focus screens, use less, to focus fast glass manually. I find really good focus screens like the full matte H-2 screen in my F3HP to be less accurate and much slower in focussing a Noct-Nikkor, than doing a Noctilux on a well adjusted Leica M. If you're trying to tell me that you hit the focus mark with your Noct using the rangefinder system 100% of the time then, simply put, I don't believe you. I don't - nobody does. There is a keeper rate (which is fairly high above 50% for critical focus - meaning pixel accurate) and a high enough rate of good focus, which is either invisible in the final print or does not matter for the actual imaging. I very, very seldom encounter moments anymore, where I miss good focus out of operators error on the Noctilux. It is my mainly used lens and I have learned my and the lens' limitation, where and how to shoot at which aperture and range. I do not have 100% vision, but I smell focus - it's a learning thing. Just less complaining and fretting pixel peeping, but just shooting instead helps a lot to get it down. I do not mean offense to wards Lloyd Chambers, but he is possibly the full opposite in his priorities and shooting a Leica M, than I am. I see him as a very correct and technical reviewer of highly detailed facts regarding imaging systems. He shoots for the highest possible resolution and detail as a landscape and nature photographer - I am not the slightest bit interested in that (content and shooting wise). The Noctilux f1 with it's flaws and imperfections alone would be an issue for Mr. Chambers, who seems to seek after the very highest perfected imaging tools ;-) For the record I have mild astigmatism. Contact lenses are a problem and therefore have to stay with glasses. Not ideal with the Leica VF. Easily addressed with LV. I'd like to think that Leica consider all of their customers, not just those with good eyesight. I bought a GH-2 with Novoflex adapter, to use exclusively with Leica M glass. It has one of the very best implementations of EVF and Live View. Trust me, it is a completely different shooting experience from shooting a Leica M and fast glass. There will be no way, that I will buy a Leica M with Live View/ EVF, if the contemporary/ traditional optical rangefinder experience is in any way compromised or reduced in performance from what it is with Todays MP and M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 1, 2011 Share #249 Posted June 1, 2011 …For the record, I'm Swiss, we rarely agree with Germans, but I swear that on the M-Forum I discover my hidden conservative. Naahh … common - I am a Chinese German after all Or at least a fully integrated European with a globally open mindset thingy, or what that would be called correctly ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 1, 2011 Share #250 Posted June 1, 2011 I agree but there is a physical constraint regarding the M camera: you cannot place a much larger screen at the back because the height has to be limited to the magnesium part of the body. It may be much better in 1) resolution, 2), contrast and visibility under sunlight, 3) scratch resistance, 4) power consumption, and 5) thickness. But it does not depend on Leica. I assume they need a supplier for a good OLED screen specifically made for the M camera, and then a new design involving new processor units. I agree on all accounts. I will dig out and old camera for a comparison: Samsung NV7 OPS - my very first digital camera. Imagine an display design (without the NV7 style buttons, as they are reacting on nose tips as well), as clean and flush as on the NV7 on the back of a Leica M with a slight matte anti grease finish and smaller, than the current display. It would be a challenge regarding space and design constraints, but we can dream, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashwinrao1 Posted June 1, 2011 Share #251 Posted June 1, 2011 man, are you a fast shooter!. I need those 0.7 secs to get the camera to my eye and focus. I dunno, JAAP, I'm upto 0.5 seconds with my hip-to-eye transit time...It's taken 4 years, but....I have arrived.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashwinrao1 Posted June 1, 2011 Share #252 Posted June 1, 2011 Maybe they're going back to pre-aspherical... Lol! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashwinrao1 Posted June 1, 2011 Share #253 Posted June 1, 2011 Lens serial number begins "36......" Old(er) lens, not new. Well, didn't you hear that they are going back to older serial numbers?!? Sorry, this thread...sigh..... I admit that I will be lusting after a sexy new M, like most of us, but this time, I'll get over it....the M9 is camera enough for me, and faster start up times, new-old glass (sorry, had to), and no red dot won't change the game for me.... I'm just still happy that 2 years later (almost), the M9 is still a camera that's hard to complain about, and 20 years later, a chrome pre-asph version IV Summicron brings on some lens lust.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabow Posted June 1, 2011 Share #254 Posted June 1, 2011 Kind of like being the quality police doesn't make you happy. Inane comment, best ignored. Sorry, I have never and will never bang portraits, we might have different techniques here. I do see how you'd miss some shots like that. Pedantic comment, also best ignored (Note to self - must spell things out properly in future.) Thanks, went better than expected.An assumption I want to clear up, I'm a landscape photographer, I rarely shoot people at 0.95, I find the Bokeh of the Nocti causes too much separation of the critical focus point, let's assume the eye, to the extent that some of my models eyes have actually fallen out. So you shoot landscapes with a Noctilux wide open... interesting... My assumption here is based on the fact that I was talking about critical focus with this lens wide open on an RF system, and the argument therefore for LV on an M camera. You responded saying every one of your 1600 shots were focused spot on. So, landscapes, at f/0.95, correct? Just want to be sure we have our apples in a row here and you're not trying to throw a few oranges into the mix. I'm not saying all portraits should be shot with this lens at f/0.95, but it does fit certain poses and lighting conditions very well Unfortunately, when those conditions are met the focus then becomes a hit and miss affair. Hence my original statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabow Posted June 1, 2011 Share #255 Posted June 1, 2011 You must have a defective M9 then.Seriously, when I hold my M8.2 in front of me, switching the camera on, raising the camera to me eye (even extremely quick), the camera's meter is fully operational, I can focus, set exposure and just shoot. I don't believe it is defective. I believe it's just too slow for me and I can't get used to it. Especially when I use other cameras that respond quicker and then come back to the M9. It catches me out far too often and I find it unacceptable (for me). Your shooting style differs, fair enough. I'm not about to try and change the way I shoot to try and get around issues with a camera which, truth be told, shouldn't be there in the first place. The start up time annoys you - don't start up the camera! Leave it on (actually, I often do during a day's/ night's shooting).Annoyed by the slow image rendering - don't render images! I have the LCD permanently off, as it is useless anyway - in it's current status and in any future potential high res version. Waking the camera up takes just as long as starting it up, so I don't see the benefit of leaving it on, unless I'm expected to continually tap the shutter release just to keep the camera responsive. You're trying to impose the way you use your camera on me and that doesn't fit. There are flaws with this camera in my book. Perhaps not in yours, but in mine there certainly are. For the most part they are niggles that I would like to see addressed, would like Leica to sit up and take notice of their customers and try and do something about it so that the M9 can be the complete joy to use I know it's capable of with a bit of extra care and attention by the manufacturer. I know I'm not alone in these thoughts. Many of the original reviewers of the M8, M8.2 and M9 pointed out the same things. I accept that I have to put up with these flaws for now but it hinders my workflow and also means I miss good shots. Not acceptable. I don't buy the more res screen, more MP sensor crap. It doesn't make you pictures any better, nor does it allow you, to represent them in any better way on the back of the camera. I'm asking for a screen that befits the camera. Higher resolution so that I can check focus from time to time. I don't see why that is such a stretch to ask, given the cost of the camera. The ability to check focus accurately will indeed allow you to correct any problem and, as a result, make your pictures better. Annoyed by slow card writing times and full buffers - shoot DNG only (JPGs are crappy anyway for any other use than small prints, web or news media). I really wish you would stop trying to preach to me. I've been a photographer for 28 years. I've been involved with digital since 1998. Enough already please. … I use the digital M exactly the same as a film M.I can shoot quicker, if I must. I get more shots (way more shots) out of the camera, before having to open the bottom plate (about 200 − 400). The battery and SD card is even easier to load than film. Even compared to a film M with motor or Leicavit, the digital one is quicker (if quicker is, what you're after). Fine, okay... the camera is perfect for you and I guess, given your enthusiasm, you'll never need to upgrade because, if anything, the camera needs to step backwards rather than forwards. That's fine, and I'm happy for you. Just be aware that others are a little less than happy and are quite entitled to be so. What an LCD is nice to have for, but not essential to me:- check focus Ta-dah! If you are unsure in a certain situation - shoot again.If shoot again is no option - relax, that's life, don't sweat the "arrgh, didn't get the focus, what should I do, what should I do - it is wasted valuable time in your left hours on planet earth to do so ;-) . Summarised to 'just accept the flaws and frustrations'. No can do. What I hate the LCD for:- stands out on the back of the camera, reducing eyepoint - robs focus (my focus on more important things than an LCD) - makes many people ask "Can you show me the photo?" for which one often should kindly respond, "Sure!", knowing, that the LCD rendering looks infinitely more crappy than a nice print of the same frame - nosey issues - ergonomic issues, mentioned above (buttons, etc…) 1) Don't have an issue with this. I don't think it stands out that much and, as I use a half-case anyway, it poses no problem. 2) Don't get this one. I use the LCD when I need to. When I don't, I don't. Surely this is just a case of focusing your mind on the task at hand (have some preaching back ) 3) A good argument for having a better LCD then! 4 & 5) No problems here. The RF is a lot, and I mean A LOT better suited to focus thin DOF subjects with super speed lenses than a ground glass or AF for me. With RF you're already at a disadvantage with the VF crop imposed with longer focal length lenses. LV would mitigate this in a big way. Not for street shooting of course, although there are even instances here that I can see a use for it. The Noctilux f1 with it's flaws and imperfections alone would be an issue for Mr. Chambers, who seems to seek after the very highest perfected imaging tools ;-) There's nothing wrong with striving for perfection, both in ones own work and in the tools one uses. Perfecting the tools should lead to improved results overall. It's a good mantra to have. Much preferred to acceptance IMO. I bought a GH-2 with Novoflex adapter, to use exclusively with Leica M glass. It has one of the very best implementations of EVF and Live View.Trust me, it is a completely different shooting experience from shooting a Leica M and fast glass. I don't need to trust you. I have a similar set-up with a GF1. There will be no way, that I will buy a Leica M with Live View/ EVF, if the contemporary/ traditional optical rangefinder experience is in any way compromised or reduced in performance from what it is with Todays MP and M9. I don't see any reason why it would need to be compromised unless you allow it to affect your workflow. But that's your choice. The camera seems to suit you very well as it is. What I suggested in my initial post would improve the camera for me. At the same time it should not add anything that will cause a problem for you... unless you let it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 1, 2011 Share #256 Posted June 1, 2011 Wow. You really are full of yourself aren't you? Insulting other members is not the style of this forum. Please desist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roydonian Posted June 1, 2011 Share #257 Posted June 1, 2011 It’s getting hard to remember that this thread was originally started to discuss the M-9P. Does anybody recognize the leatherette grip? Is it faux vulcanite?Thanks... Both of the leaked images show the vulcanite-style covering. That said, I recall how when one London dealer had a publicity day for the then-new MP, the camera actually on display was a special M6 model made for Japan, complete with vulcanite finish and an engraved top plate. He had to explain that the standard version of the MP would not have these features. So despite my promise to Herr Daniel, my credit card will be staying in my pocket until I see the official spec for the new camera. Best regards, Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 1, 2011 Share #258 Posted June 1, 2011 Interesting point - what is Leica's core customer base? Before the M8/9, who was it? R camera owners? M camera owners? Existing owners buying second/third/fourth cameras? It is a serious question. The M digital cameras appear to have widened Leica's customer base considerably. Who should they be aiming their new M product lines at? For diehard film users, they have a choice of M7 & MP. For those who think the M9 is perfect as a concept, with some room for improvement in areas, an M9-P would keep them happy. If Leica offers an M which provides a lot of the things that some digital enthusiasts want, why should that alienate those who don't like change ... Cheers John I would say that Leica's core customer base are M users. Why do people buy Leica M cameras? Not because they have autofocus that's for sure! People who choose M's do so because - generally speaking - they like the analogue controls, simplicity and design, this includes being manual focus IMHO. That's not to say that there isn't room for Leica to develop a new AF system down the line, but to simply replace the M with a new AF system camera (which would invariably use an EVF) then yes, they would be alienating the vast majority of their current customers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinocchio Wood Posted June 1, 2011 Share #259 Posted June 1, 2011 Spoke to my Leica dealer in Sydney today who had just sold an M8.2 for me (still sort of regret that). He advised me that cosmetic changes only for $1,000 above old (rrp?) M9 price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 1, 2011 Share #260 Posted June 1, 2011 Hahaha - this is fun, let's see, how long you can keep me interested in this game ;-) I don't believe it is defective. I believe it's just too slow for me and I can't get used to it. Especially when I use other cameras that respond quicker and then come back to the M9. It catches me out far too often and I find it unacceptable (for me). Your shooting style differs, fair enough. I'm not about to try and change the way I shoot to try and get around issues with a camera which, truth be told, shouldn't be there in the first place. Accepted - my initial point though is, that I seriously just cannot imagine a photographer, who indeed meters, sets, composes, focusses and shoots faster than a Leica M9 wakes up. Waking the camera up takes just as long as starting it up, so I don't see the benefit of leaving it on, … - not having to fiddle with the flawed On/Off/mode dial crutch You're trying to impose the way you use your camera on me and that doesn't fit. There are flaws with this camera in my book. Not just in yours - you probably didn't read my posts thoroughly. I really wish you would stop trying to preach to me. I've been a photographer for 28 years. I've been involved with digital since 1998. Enough already please.… … and won many prices, and so on, and so on … You have some nice work on your site. But seriously … preaching? Fine, okay... the camera is perfect for you no it isn't and I guess, given your enthusiasm, you'll never need to upgrade no, I actually play with that though right now because, if anything, the camera needs to step backwards rather than forwards. that thought is frivolous That's fine, and I'm happy for you. Just be aware that others are a little less than happy and are quite entitled to be so. Absolutely, while I fully respect that. Ta-dah! Ta-dah! With RF you're already at a disadvantage with the VF crop imposed with longer focal length lenses. which is still fine for a 50/1, 90/2 and even 135/3.4 LV would mitigate this in a big way. and introduce it's related further issues to an already "flawed" camera ;-) Not for street shooting of course, although there are even instances here that I can see a use for it. Me too, which is, why in fact I am still undecided, to sell the new GH2 again or just keep it as an affordable extension, providing a 2x crop factor, quite light and compact build, not too bad image quality in higher ISO speeds compared to a M8 sensor, flip out screen potential. I do foresee though a dusty ending in a long forgotten corner in some cabinet. There's nothing wrong with striving for perfection, both in ones own work and in the tools one uses. Perfecting the tools should lead to improved results overall. It's a good mantra to have. Much preferred to acceptance IMO. You imply this well meant advise to a native German? We have invented "striving for perfection"! I don't need to trust you. I have a similar set-up with a GF1. My GH2 is much better than your GF1 ! It has a better screen, better wake up time, better EVF, … The above post = (at least in major parts) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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