Leica M9-P ????

[bybrett]

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Nice lens.

[earleygallery]

We already have a thread on this.

[ezc203]

I'm with Brett. The (what seems likes) new 35mm Cron design looks very interesting...

[earleygallery]

It's a pre ASPH lens according to Seal.

[bybrett]

Maybe they're going back to pre-aspherical...

[menos I M6]

All this talk about cosmetic niceties. Sapphire glass, inscriptions, dot colours. I would prefer Leica actually spend their time addressing the issues with the M9 (some of which should already have been addressed with the move from the M8. Forget the M9.2... or whatever they choose to call it. Focus on the problems and make sure the next version lives up to expectation. Here's a few to start with:

 

Faster power on time

 

Power on time is absolutely adequate - not different enough from the Nikon D3, to justify development capacity. The most time lost during power up though is not the camera's electronics, but the completely useless idea of cramming several (similarly useless) modes into an on/off switch (see Leica M7).

 

MUCH faster wake-up time. For a camera designed with street shooting in mind, I've lost count of the number of shots I've missed because the camera just can't get it's act together quick enough.

You seem, to get surprised a bit by the moments - don't feel offended, but you should consider "reading your surroundings" more. The moment, I see a potential shot, I wake the camera up with a touch on the shutter release, while I prepare myself, prefocussing the lens, rechecking my shutter speed and ISO if applicable (I constantly check my exposure presets, when shooting in changing environments).

 

This all can go as quick as a few seconds (seriously, ask yourself, do you really shoot from recognizing a scene to finished frame within less than half a second?) to several minutes, as scenes evolve.

Sometimes, it takes a little by standing, as subjects get used to your presence, as you are close with a Leica.

 

An LCD screen worthy of a camera at this price point, and not something that belongs to cameras 5+ years ago

Actually this LCD on the digital M is already way overkill, as it robs valuable real estate on the back of the camera, while it's only meaningful purpose at the moment is checking exposure histograms casually (not needed in the age of film, as the medium is more forgiving - so THIS would be a point, to work on, to make away with the unnecessary LCD at once).

The design decision, to have valuable settings and status info put in menus is another point, why one needs the LCD still - I would be more than happy, to find Leica resolving this issue and canceling a LCD entirely - this is Leica's design principle no 1 after all: simplicity for more focus on the image, rather on fiddling with cameras.

 

Who still believes after more than 10 years digital still photography, that one can guess exposure or image quality from a post mark sized picture on an LCD is still hallucinating the digital drug. You know, if your exposure is spot on, as you get experienced with the light.

You know, if your focus was spot on, as you get experienced with your lens.

 

Liveview, to take some of the focusing guesswork out of using lenses like the Noctilux

If you have issues, focussing a Noctilux, something else is wrong than the fact, that the Noctilux has a critically thin dof.

Not ever do I want to hold a M at arms length, to twiddle focus on a LCD screen.

This is not bragging, but I do focus my f1 Noct with confidence wide open - quickly at that.

Learn your lens, adjust your camera, check your eyes, consume less coffee and smokes and shoot away (get enough sleep too, as eye performance degrades severely with too little of it).

 

A power on button that isn't quite so easily knocked on accidentally

 

Absolutely spot on!

Leica has shot in their users feet, when the new shutter speed dial with endless rotation and missing B/OFF position was introduced.

Leica had another go, aiming at the kneecaps and squarely crushed them, when the completely inappropriate, slow and fiddly on/off switch/ mode dial crutch has been employed on the digital M.

I have had to file down my mode dial, to not accidentally knock it off, while the fiddling for "on" persists of course.

 

Auto-ISO functionality that can also work based on lens focal length and shutter speed combination.

Never use Auto ISO - can't comment on that.

 

After shooting a lot of film M, since I found out about Leica M, I always switch off Auto ISO even on the D3, as it is distracting and slow to work with (you cannot quickly move into full manual exposures without having to twiddle in the Auto ISO menus ).

 

The M9 creates wonderful images, but Leica could really do with listening to their customers a little bit more. Much of what I've listed above was discussed shortly after the M8 came out... and ignored. The special-editions seem to be more important. Pity. I just want a camera that feels intuitive and doesn't have quite so many easily addressed shortfalls from a camera company that traditionally served photographers, not collectors.

 

You unfortunately have to respect and understand, that Leica is a German manufacturer. I am German and deal with traditional German corporations - they are mostly slow as molasses, when it comes to quick decisions and (beware) external input (be it customers or paid advisors).

 

Leica is especially known for sloooooooooow changes, or does anybody know another company developing a product like a M3 towards a M7 within the time frame of half a century, while other manufacturers typically made such transitions within less than two camera model cycles back then?

Thanks though in the case of Leica, this all was only to the good of the M ;-)

[adan]

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Lens serial number begins "36......" Old(er) lens, not new.

[ho_co]

We already have a thread on this.

 

Gee, James, I'd noticed the thread but because of the question marks in the title assumed it was another speculation thread, so I didn't read it. Glad it was posted here more positively!

 

But I want a camera without the M9 step at the viewfinder end, with a slab top like the titanium and the M8.

 

Oh, well, off to read the other thread's 200 posts so I don't miss anything important.

 

 

Edit: Oops! Well, maybe it gets more specific after the first page. For now, I'll just wait for the announcement.

[mooky]

When they came out with the R4S'P' it reminds of this M9P 'product development' idea from Leica. Yes, they are absolutely slow as molasses in winter, and I've never known them to be any other way.

 

One has to wonder (as has been mentioned in the past) whether they have the production capacity or ability to bring any really new and different product when they still are trying to introduce the S lenses they've promised.

 

I would be completely shocked if they EVER have AF on a traditional M body for the obvious tech/room, and the total trashing they would get from the 'traditionalist' Leica-phile. One could think that the obvious thing for them is to come up with some type of 'bridge-camera' that would have the physical design/capacity for future tech changes, have the capacity for AF and new lenses as well as allow the use of manual M glass. Until then or whatever/whenever it is, it'll be M9P like items. Wait, and save your money.

[zlatkob]

Power on time is absolutely adequate - not different enough from the Nikon D3, to justify development capacity.

 

The camera has a slowness that appears now and then, such as if you press the Play button too soon after start up (~3 second wait), or if you try to make exposure compensation adjustments too soon after several frames. Just a little annoyance now and then.

 

I would be more than happy, to find Leica resolving this issue and canceling a LCD entirely - this is Leica's design principle no 1 after all: simplicity for more focus on the image, rather on fiddling with cameras.

 

That would absolutely kill the camera for me. A digital camera without a preview screen is a complete non-starter. I wouldn't want one even if offered for free. The LCD is easily one of the most useful features to come to cameras in about a century. One doesn't have to be a constant viewer of the LCD to benefit from it now and then. I grew up shooting film and find the LCD to be positively brilliant, a dream come true. So of course I would urge Leica to use a better LCD. When I want that kind of simplicity (which is never), I will turn the LCD off, put on my hair shirt and go forth photographing everything prefocused, using only ISO 160 and sunny 16 ... purely focused on the image, with no fiddling with the camera at all.

[IkarusJohn]

Here's a thought - an M9-P as the ultimate M9, with all gripes resolved (dot/no dot, who cares, but sapphire LCD, chrome and improved electronics). But perhaps an end of the road traditional digital M, like the MP for film.

 

Then a new M-AF, which has live view, autofocus, does away with the optical viewfinder and all the things that M Camera lovers loathe ...

 

Just speculating!

 

Cheers

John

[Scott Root]

unlike the M7, the MP had a cloth shutter in addition to its classic look so hopefully this M9-P will introduce an autowinding cloth shutter to make it a classic?

[Dabow]

Power on time is absolutely adequate - not different enough from the Nikon D3, to justify development capacity. The most time lost during power up though is not the camera's electronics, but the completely useless idea of cramming several (similarly useless) modes into an on/off switch (see Leica M7).

 

No it isn't adequate. Not familiar with the Nikon, so can't comment. I only know that start-up lags behind other cameras I have used, some of which are older than the M9.

 

You seem, to get surprised a bit by the moments - don't feel offended, but you should consider "reading your surroundings" more. The moment, I see a potential shot, I wake the camera up with a touch on the shutter release, while I prepare myself, prefocussing the lens, rechecking my shutter speed and ISO if applicable (I constantly check my exposure presets, when shooting in changing environments).

 

This all can go as quick as a few seconds (seriously, ask yourself, do you really shoot from recognizing a scene to finished frame within less than half a second?) to several minutes, as scenes evolve.

Sometimes, it takes a little by standing, as subjects get used to your presence, as you are close with a Leica.

 

There are times when the approach you use suffices. There are other times, such as within crowds and restricted spaces, when it simply won't work. A shot appears suddenly before you, from amidst a close group... you've missed it. Reading your surroundings is all well and good, but it still amounts to guesswork at the end of the day. Perhaps it will unfold the way you want, perhaps it won't. I like an instant response for those times when I'm not shooting wide and hoping for an act to come together. I want it for those times when I see something that's fleeting, that I couldn't have guessed was about to happen. Reading a scene or not, the last thing I want is a camera that let's me down because it's too damn sluggish to get it's act together in time. I must admit though that your acceptance of this flaw, as someone whose come from film M's, surprises me.

 

Actually this LCD on the digital M is already way overkill, as it robs valuable real estate on the back of the camera, while it's only meaningful purpose at the moment is checking exposure histograms casually (not needed in the age of film, as the medium is more forgiving - so THIS would be a point, to work on, to make away with the unnecessary LCD at once).

The design decision, to have valuable settings and status info put in menus is another point, why one needs the LCD still - I would be more than happy, to find Leica resolving this issue and canceling a LCD entirely - this is Leica's design principle no 1 after all: simplicity for more focus on the image, rather on fiddling with cameras.

 

Who still believes after more than 10 years digital still photography, that one can guess exposure or image quality from a post mark sized picture on an LCD is still hallucinating the digital drug. You know, if your exposure is spot on, as you get experienced with the light. You know, if your focus was spot on, as you get experienced with your lens.

 

Okay... we'll just beg to differ in a big way on this one. Not sure what 'valuable real estate' you're referring to which the LCD is taking away. What else would you use this area for? You say in one breath that you appreciate the valuable settings and status info, but in the same sentence you don't see the need for the LCD. Somewhat confusing and contradictory, unless I'm reading your meaning incorrectly. The fact remains that the LCD is a very important tool, not only for checking the histogram periodically to ensure accurate exposure in varying lighting conditions, but also to check focus has been met properly at the required point. The current LCD is adequate for the 1st, but far from for the 2nd. I'll repeat that it's low quality, poor resolution and well beneath a camera at this price point. Especially on a rangefinder, where accurate focusing at shallow DoF is tricky at best. Leads me on nicely to your next comment...

 

If you have issues, focussing a Noctilux, something else is wrong than the fact, that the Noctilux has a critically thin dof.

Not ever do I want to hold a M at arms length, to twiddle focus on a LCD screen.

This is not bragging, but I do focus my f1 Noct with confidence wide open - quickly at that.

Learn your lens, adjust your camera, check your eyes, consume less coffee and smokes and shoot away (get enough sleep too, as eye performance degrades severely with too little of it).

 

If you're trying to tell me that you hit the focus mark with your Noct using the rangefinder system 100% of the time then, simply put, I don't believe you. Either that or critical focus isn't that important to you (no offence, to some it isn't, so perhaps the reason). I'm not alone in my thinking that the Noct/Rangefinder combination is a flawed one when it comes to focusing. Diglloyd has a very good write up on the M9/Noctilux combination which pretty much hits the nail on the head. The focus vagaries on an RF system with a lens that demands critical focus are too high. For general street work perhaps not so much of an issue. However, try shooting portraits with this lens wide or close-to-wide open and see how many soft shots you get. No amount of 20/20 vision, learning your lens, adjusting your camera, etc. etc. can address this. A Liveview system would.

 

For the record I have mild astigmatism. Contact lenses are a problem and therefore have to stay with glasses. Not ideal with the Leica VF. Easily addressed with LV. I'd like to think that Leica consider all of their customers, not just those with good eyesight.

 

Never use Auto ISO - can't comment on that.

 

After shooting a lot of film M, since I found out about Leica M, I always switch off Auto ISO even on the D3, as it is distracting and slow to work with (you cannot quickly move into full manual exposures without having to twiddle in the Auto ISO menus ).

 

Having an auto-ISO feature that works based on lens focal length and shutter speed would make the camera quicker to work with. You wouldn't have to bother about fiddling to change the ISO yourself when shutter speeds stray into motion blur territory. The camera would simply up the ISO to the next level and you're away. For times when you want the blur, simply turn the feature off. Certainly preferable (for me) than the current way it's implemented on the M9, which basically let's the camera make exposure adjustments for you.

 

You unfortunately have to respect and understand, that Leica is a German manufacturer. I am German and deal with traditional German corporations - they are mostly slow as molasses, when it comes to quick decisions and (beware) external input (be it customers or paid advisors).

 

Leica is especially known for sloooooooooow changes, or does anybody know another company developing a product like a M3 towards a M7 within the time frame of half a century, while other manufacturers typically made such transitions within less than two camera model cycles back then?

 

Perhaps this is slowly becoming their undoing. They were slow into the digital race and are still playing catchup. They're relying heavily on their brand name and the weight it's carried over the years, hoping it will continue to do so. To one extent this is true, to another it is very shortsighted and risky. Ignore customers needs at your peril. Loyalty only stretches so far. A company that ignores it's customers and carves its own path, especially in this day and age, is walking a tightrope.

[earleygallery]

unlike the M7, the MP had a cloth shutter in addition to its classic look so hopefully this M9-P will introduce an autowinding cloth shutter to make it a classic?

 

Why? And how will they fit it inside the body?

[earleygallery]

Here's a thought - an M9-P as the ultimate M9, with all gripes resolved (dot/no dot, who cares, but sapphire LCD, chrome and improved electronics). But perhaps an end of the road traditional digital M, like the MP for film.

 

Then a new M-AF, which has live view, autofocus, does away with the optical viewfinder and all the things that M Camera lovers loathe ...

 

Just speculating!

 

Cheers

John

 

Makes perfect business sense to alienate your core customer base in one fell swoop!

[Dabow]

That would absolutely kill the camera for me. A digital camera without a preview screen is a complete non-starter. I wouldn't want one even if offered for free. The LCD is easily one of the most useful features to come to cameras in about a century. One doesn't have to be a constant viewer of the LCD to benefit from it now and then. I grew up shooting film and find the LCD to be positively brilliant, a dream come true. So of course I would urge Leica to use a better LCD. When I want that kind of simplicity (which is never), I will turn the LCD off, put on my hair shirt and go forth photographing everything prefocused, using only ISO 160 and sunny 16 ... purely focused on the image, with no fiddling with the camera at all.

 

Couldn't agree more! Just because it's there of course doesn't mean you have to chimp every shot, but there are times when the assurance that everything is coming out the way it should be is important. Focus is the important one for me and that's precisely where the current LCD is a big let down.

[andybarton]

unlike the M7, the MP had a cloth shutter in addition to its classic look so hopefully this M9-P will introduce an autowinding cloth shutter to make it a classic?

 

The M7 and the MP share the same cloth shutter, but it is electronically controlled on the M7

 

You'd be restricted to 1/1000 as the highest speed too, with a cloth shutter. I really don't think people would accept that these days. That would mean that you would need to have a chip that had a native ISO of about 50 to accommodate the slower max shutter speed.

[jaapv]

Couldn't agree more! Just because it's there of course doesn't mean you have to chimp every shot, but there are times when the assurance that everything is coming out the way it should be is important. Focus is the important one for me and that's precisely where the current LCD is a big let down.

That is true. The LCD should be a lot better on this camera.

[Scott Root]

I didn't realize that the M7 is equipped with a cloth shutter--I stand corrected.

 

The M7 and the MP share the same cloth shutter, but it is electronically controlled on the M7

 

You'd be restricted to 1/1000 as the highest speed too, with a cloth shutter. I really don't think people would accept that these days. That would mean that you would need to have a chip that had a native ISO of about 50 to accommodate the slower max shutter speed.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[neli]

Okay... we'll just beg to differ in a big way on this one. Not sure what 'valuable real estate' you're referring to which the LCD is taking away. What else would you use this area for? You say in one breath that you appreciate the valuable settings and status info, but in the same sentence you don't see the need for the LCD. Somewhat confusing and contradictory, unless I'm reading your meaning incorrectly. The fact remains that the LCD is a very important tool, not only for checking the histogram periodically to ensure accurate exposure in varying lighting conditions, but also to check focus has been met properly at the required point. The current LCD is adequate for the 1st, but far from for the 2nd. I'll repeat that it's low quality, poor resolution and well beneath a camera at this price point. Especially on a rangefinder, where accurate focusing at shallow DoF is tricky at best.

.

I'll agree with the fact that the LCD is poor at the price point, the real estate might be well be used for an iso dial i can reach with my right hand without putting the camera down. that would resolve the auto-iso weirdness. the histogram could be shown on a smaller led type screen that doesn't suck as much power.

 

 

If you're trying to tell me that you hit the focus mark with your Noct using the rangefinder system 100% of the time then, simply put, I don't believe you. Either that or critical focus isn't that important to you (no offence, to some it isn't, so perhaps the reason). I'm not alone in my thinking that the Noct/Rangefinder combination is a flawed one when it comes to focusing. Diglloyd has a very good write up on the M9/Noctilux combination which pretty much hits the nail on the head. The focus vagaries on an RF system with a lens that demands critical focus are too high. For general street work perhaps not so much of an issue. However, try shooting portraits with this lens wide or close-to-wide open and see how many soft shots you get. No amount of 20/20 vision, learning your lens, adjusting your camera, etc. etc. can address this. A Liveview system would.

 

For the record I have mild astigmatism. Contact lenses are a problem and therefore have to stay with glasses. Not ideal with the Leica VF. Easily addressed with LV. I'd like to think that Leica consider all of their customers, not just those with good eyesight.

.

Better not believe two people then. I've just closed an exhibition where 30 pictures where exhibited, all done at 0.95, chosen from some 1600, all shot at 0.95, and yes, not a single one of them missed the focus point. Getting to know the lens/camera combo has something to do with intuition maybe, vagaries of an RF system included.

 

Having an auto-ISO feature that works based on lens focal length and shutter speed would make the camera quicker to work with. You wouldn't have to bother about fiddling to change the ISO yourself when shutter speeds stray into motion blur territory. The camera would simply up the ISO to the next level and you're away. For times when you want the blur, simply turn the feature off. Certainly preferable (for me) than the current way it's implemented on the M9, which basically let's the camera make exposure adjustments for you..

See above, an iso dial would be pretty easy to twiddle.

 

For the record, I'm Swiss, we rarely agree with Germans, but I swear that on the M-Forum I discover my hidden conservative.