bill Posted May 13, 2011 Share #61 Posted May 13, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wow! Really... WOW! I really hope that Leica don't view all of their customers who bring cameras back to them with faults caused by poor construction in this cynical manner. Regarding all customers as potential cheats is a public relations disaster! I didn't say that. I was exaggerating for comic effect. Still, it seems that there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't think twice about making a fraudulent claim - in the UK alone, undetected general insurance claims fraud total £1.9billion a year adding on average £44 to the annual costs individual policyholders face, on average, each year. Just to be clear, before the PC brigade wade in, I am NOT suggesting that this is the case in this instance, merely making the point that a company that behaves as if every claim made against it is automatically justified in the name of "public relations" will not stay in existence for long. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Hi bill, Take a look here Regret Purchase of M9 after 2nd service. . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
plasticman Posted May 13, 2011 Share #62 Posted May 13, 2011 Leica are a business not a charity. Bill I feel your example is both unrealistic and cynical. This 'business not charity' thing is also overplayed, in my opinion. Naturally if Leica felt that a particular claim was fraudulent then it would be another matter entirely. But in this case (for instance) they seem to have hit upon a very far-fetched excuse for not fixing a lens that they seem not to be disputing was attached to the camera when a manufacturing fault caused the accident. I'm not going to get into a 'Leica are great/Leica suck" argument here. I'm simply extremely surprised how they reacted in this case. PS: you were posting while I was writing. Having said that, the last sentence in your post could be reversed: "a company that behaves as if every claim made against it is automatically fraudulent in the name of "profit" will not stay in existence for long." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caterman Posted May 13, 2011 Share #63 Posted May 13, 2011 With all these warranty claims I can't believe how Leica can sell the M9 sooo cheaply;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted May 13, 2011 Share #64 Posted May 13, 2011 It's Friday, Mani. We'll agree to differ, eh? Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristopherGrant Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share #65 Posted May 13, 2011 Thanks all for the replies. Just to reiterate: What I don't expect: 1. For them to completely service the 35mm lens that was 'lightly damaged' (cosmetic only). What I do expect to be fixed or have worked to begin with: 1. Back dial behaving erratically to the point of being unable to use (fixed now) 2. Shutter dial occasionally giving wrong input (in service) 3. LED light in viewfinder out (in service) 4. Strap 'lug' coming out with no warning (in service). 5. Them to calibrate the camera to the 35mm lens that was dropped with #4 issue in order to assure it wasn't sent out of whack. At the very least inspect the lens within reason. 5. Faster service than 2 months of 12 (as of roughly today with at least 1 week to go) without some sort of compensation. So I don't believe we should argue back and forth too much here, and try to treat this as just information for others to make their own decisions. I will write once more when the camera is back with finals details of the service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted May 13, 2011 Share #66 Posted May 13, 2011 ... Though the lens was damaged due to the fault from the camera body, Leica will not check it out (for free) as it has been serviced before and apparently by someone else (before I owned the lens).... I think the folks complaining about this aren't considering what's involved with "checking" lenses. Leica has checked it, found that it has been mis-serviced elsewhere, and told you what putting it back in spec will cost. It might have cost the same thing to bring to spec before the camera fell; or perhaps this estimate includes replacements for bent parts and would have been less before the impact. Leica doesn't do half-way repairs. When a repair item leaves their hand, it carries a one-year warranty. "Please just calibrate it to this body within reason" is like saying "Please just fix the car, but don't do any work." Leica looked at it and decided it needed work. All the best to you Christopher. I'm sorry the problem occurred. It shouldn't have. Strap lugs shouldn't pull out. But lens damage done by a previous repairman can't be included in damage caused by the fall. BTW--Interesting thread, if for no reason other than that it's the first time I've found myself on the same side of an argument as Bill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristopherGrant Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share #67 Posted May 13, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good thoughts, thanks Howard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted May 13, 2011 Share #68 Posted May 13, 2011 So should I buy one?! Of course! But do just like me. If you can't afford to pay for the expenses when it makes an occasional drop: Insure the things! My insurance covers this kind of drops. You'll get a new one if it's a total loss. No more things to worry about. The costs: 20 promille. Leica happy because you're a paying costumer without hassle and you happy because everything gets paid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 13, 2011 Share #69 Posted May 13, 2011 Just to be clear, before the PC brigade wade in, I am NOT suggesting that this is the case in this instance, merely making the point that a company that behaves as if every claim made against it is automatically justified in the name of "public relations" will not stay in existence for long. Regards, Bill Does it not seem reasonable to expect that when a strap lug comes lose and a camera falls as a result that a lens would likely be attached and damaged? To only have minor cosmetic damage is very fortunate. How much could it possibly cost Leica to just repair that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted May 13, 2011 Share #70 Posted May 13, 2011 I would be far more concerned about electronic component failure such as the sensor suddenly packing up (as has just happened to my X1) than the M9's "all-mechanical" construction. Mechanical parts can be fixed and adjusted and often the camera will keep on working in the interim. Not so with electronics. They need replacing. I don't believe there's anything about Leica sensor's and electronic components that is better than anyone else's. It seems any product that incorporates computer components contains an additional element of uncertainty. That's just the nature of things, and is mainly down to the fact that additional features, and not reliability, is the main driving force behind product development of most consumer items. Few items are built to last in the same way they used to be. It's a risk we are prepared to accept (or not) for the sake of convenience and performance. Nevertheless, Leica has built its reputation on core values of reliability and ruggedness combined with technical excellence, and it must maintain these values even in the digital age in order to retain existing customers and attract new ones. As for legal arguments, I am just looking at the X1 warranty card prior to sending the camera back again, and it says, "During the warranty period we shall deal with complaints based on faulty manufacture (free of charge) by repair, replacement of defective parts or replacement by an identical flawless product at our ow discretion. Consequential claims, no matter what kind and of what legal argument, in respect of this warranty, cannot be accepted." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted May 13, 2011 Share #71 Posted May 13, 2011 Christopher some comments here are in response to opinion by others rather than simply about your specific situation. From your list, 1.2,3,4 for sure! 5 I think you can see why cannot happen unless the lens is serviced for a cost. They did inspect your lens. That is a normal part of receiving any item for servicing and the second thing they do after booking in the received item. An initial inspection to determine what needs to be done. If a warranty issue it is then performed of course. Where it is not you will receive an estimate for approval as you did. In your case they did find that there is no warranty applicable anyway, another party has also disassembled it before and it needs adjusting. You cannot check it against any standard unless that work is performed. Some other detail that you may find helpful. The camera is not adjusted to one lens nor vice versa. They are (or should be) adjusted to standard specification and every correctly adjusted item should work properly with every other correctly adjusted item. Keep in mind any Leica repairs will then include a warranty on all functions. 6 Time in service is a more problematic. Perfectly reasonable that it all should work correctly after the first servicing and you have been unlucky that was not so. Turnaround times are just never going to be great when they must include transit times and Customs delays that you cannot do anything about. In my experience those can happen at the German end too. Certainly I would only deal directly with Solms to at least cut out additional delays through local distributors in this sort of situation. As an aside, here in Australia anything but the most minor work will require a trip to Solms anyway and we are no different from our New Zealand colleagues in that respect. Thanks all for the replies. Just to reiterate: What I don't expect: 1. For them to completely service the 35mm lens that was 'lightly damaged' (cosmetic only). What I do expect to be fixed or have worked to begin with: 1. Back dial behaving erratically to the point of being unable to use (fixed now) 2. Shutter dial occasionally giving wrong input (in service) 3. LED light in viewfinder out (in service) 4. Strap 'lug' coming out with no warning (in service). 5. Them to calibrate the camera to the 35mm lens that was dropped with #4 issue in order to assure it wasn't sent out of whack. At the very least inspect the lens within reason. 5. Faster service than 2 months of 12 (as of roughly today with at least 1 week to go) without some sort of compensation. So I don't believe we should argue back and forth too much here, and try to treat this as just information for others to make their own decisions. I will write once more when the camera is back with finals details of the service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted May 14, 2011 Share #72 Posted May 14, 2011 ... I have heard of several of these lug failures.... jaques--Tell us more. I think this is the first mention of it that I've seen on the forum. Curious--What was the cause of the others? Metal fatigue? I need to recheck Mark's Anatomy thread to see how the strap lugs are mounted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted May 14, 2011 Share #73 Posted May 14, 2011 Of course! But do just like me. If you can't afford to pay for the expenses when it makes an occasional drop: Insure the things! My insurance covers this kind of drops. You'll get a new one if it's a total loss. No more things to worry about. The costs: 20 promille. Leica happy because you're a paying costumer without hassle and you happy because everything gets paid. Thank you Paulus, this is the crux of the matter. This comes up not infrequently on the forum. IF YOU CAN"T AFFORD TO REPLACE OR REPAIR IT, INSURE IT! Then you never have the problem and anxiety of warranty vs misadventure on claims. My universal 'home and contents' insurance covers all of my Leica equipment in the home and anywhere in Australia. The extra cost for the equipment (which is itemised with purchase documents with the insurer) is a trivial increase in the cost. When I travelled overseas I took out separate travel insurance for the equipment with a broker who specialises in this for approx. $600 AUD (M9, 21-Lux, 35-Lux, 50-Lux, and a few odds & ends) with an excess of $250 AUD. Compared to the value of the equipment we all own this is CHEAP! Who here who owns a car doesn't have it insured (even when still within its warranty period)? Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted May 14, 2011 Share #74 Posted May 14, 2011 jaques--Tell us more. I think this is the first mention of it that I've seen on the forum. Curious--What was the cause of the others? Metal fatigue? I need to recheck Mark's Anatomy thread to see how the strap lugs are mounted. The other one, I remember here on the forum was a poor fella, whose X1 tumbled down a rocky slope after a lug failure. I think, he ironically named the thread "X1 on the rocks". I am actually a bit surprised of the design of these lugs, to have no redundant security after a screw failure. I actually check the lugs on my cameras regularly, putting on slight stress and checking for any potential movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristopherGrant Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share #75 Posted May 14, 2011 Hoppyman: Thanks for your words, I believe you've pretty much nailed it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted May 14, 2011 Share #76 Posted May 14, 2011 It's a good thing I'am not buying Leica gear anymore. My Canon G9 is now 3 years old and has never let me down, touch wood. However my freind has a G9 also, it failed after 3 years went to Canon in Sydney for repairs, week later returned, price 250 $, good as new. If you want a SHOW PONY BUY A LEICA, LEICA'S LOOK LOVELY IN CABINETS. IF YOU PREFER A WORK HORSE THEN CHOOSE SOMETHING ELSE. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted May 14, 2011 Share #77 Posted May 14, 2011 What a load of crap (can I say that to a fellow Antipodean or will the moderator replace it with a @#$%?). That is an absolutely ludicrous statement (Hermes, Royal Wedding, and Gold editions excluded)! It is clear that most owners/users have no major problems with their cameras, and use them. Mine has been completely reliable. I get a great pleasure out of using my Leica camera and lenses, and in particular with the results that I get. They were not bought for show. I look after my camera & lenses as I would with any valuable possessions but they get used, not displayed. Do you think Salgado or Capa or most people on this forum bought their Leicas to show off with? That is not to denegrate other camera systems, and if your Canon G9 does it for you and your friend (as long as you don't get lost in its overcomplicated submenus) that's fine. A bit ike Toyota Corollas you wouldn't expect them to break down. Most users here probably use, or have used, other camera systems. Most people have no idea what a Leica is and therefore it has no poseur value on display (neck or cabinet). They are viewed as eccentric curiosities. It is not equated to a Porsche or Rolex or whatever by most people out in the real world who have never heard of them..the oohs and aahs are saved for the large Canons & Nikons that look like high-tech weapons from Sci Fi movies. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibicen Posted May 14, 2011 Share #78 Posted May 14, 2011 Amen to MarkP, I completely agree! It's always interesting to see how threads like this, which are totally justified in itself (my regards to ChristopherGrant) always attract the malcontent... I wonder what they think they can achieve with their comments...imagine the impact on, say horse-people when you go ahead and try to convince them that horses are nasty and expensive animals that only look good on a pasture but for riding, one should use a motorcycle... Regards, Claus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted May 14, 2011 Share #79 Posted May 14, 2011 Thanks Claus, I forgot to add that the web is full of comments about problems with equipment & service provided by the major Japanese camera manufacturers! Regards, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted May 14, 2011 Share #80 Posted May 14, 2011 "During the warranty period we shall deal with complaints based on faulty manufacture (free of charge) by repair, replacement of defective parts or replacement by an identical flawless product at our own discretion. Consequential claims, no matter what kind and of what legal argument, in respect of this warranty, cannot be accepted." David, thank you for taking the time to look it up (my italics). I knew there had to be such a clause. Enough with the "what Leica should do". This is clear. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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