X1 v M8

[Solar B]

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Hi Folks

 

Just a brief intro , my name is Brian i live in Scotland and my main hobby is Astronomy (Solar to be exact) however i do have a passion for Leica cameras , up until now i have been messing about with C & D Luxs plus all 3 of the Digiluxs , my fondest memories are of the Dig1 believe it or not , i currently use a V-Lux 1 which is ok.

Now i think at this point i should ad that i simply "Adore" the Rangefinder Ms by Leica i cannot conjure up a more beautiful object (inanimate) than say a silver M8 with a chrome lens.... best pics of these ive seen are on Luigis site.

So my choices are X1 (get a lot of good n bad press here) or an M8 .... now as things stand i could only afford an M8 body at present , so the X1 is in pole at the mo even though i would have to get an optical finder as i can only use finders of sorts.

Your going to ask me what i will use the camera for and i will say photographs , snapshots to be precise and any form of image processing is not on the cards.

So its really something to behold and cherish rather than a tool to an end, sorry if this sounds sacrilegious but its the truth.

A photographer friend suggests i get an older film "M" but i guess i have been using

digital too long now to revert , did all that in the 80s with AE1s to Prog then an A1.

So there you have it , your views would be much appreciated and to finish the X100 is

not an option , it does not possess a red dot.

 

Brian

[earleygallery]

Welcome to the forum.

 

If you think an M8 looks nice, go to a dealers and handle a chrome M2 and lens instead!

 

Now, you don't want a film camera so to decide between an X1 and M8.....I've not owned either and if I were to choose one, for my preferences it would be the M8, but then I already have a selection of lenses. However, I don't think that the M8 jpegs are very good, you really need to be shooting RAW and post processing.

 

The X1 produces excellent quality images, that much we know. If you can live with the issues and are happy with the single focal lenght lens then it's probably the better choice for you.

 

There is a but. You want a Leica (you could stick a red dot to an X100 - although the actual production camera has yet to be evaluated) there are many other digital solutions out there. You want a Leica "to behold and cherish". I'm not sure that an X1 will tick that box to be honest. It's a mass produced digicam, a very good digicam but that's what it is, just like the other models you've owned.

 

So, if you want a camera which is in some ways more than just a camera, something as another interest as well as just a tool to produce images, I would go back to suggesting having a look at that M2, and reconnect with film photography, and see what you've been missing!

 

This isn't digital v film, I use and appreciate both. With film the post processing is left to the lab you send your films to, you can get a CD scan and process only and print the keepers yourself. The low resolution CD scans, if of decent quality, are great for posting on the web and smaller print sizes. Or find a lab that does a proper high res scan CD if you need better quality.

 

You're taking 'snapshots' so I assume you don't actually need immedate access to your images? You're not wiring them to a picture editor to meet a deadline or having to show 'proofs' to clients during a shoot?

 

Don't zig, zag!

[DwF]

Based on what you have stated here, I sense you would be happier to go the M8 route. I have both cameras and really like my X1. I personally find placing a finder on the X1 a bit awkward as it is otherwise a nice compact camera. And for quick shooting, the screen works well allowing framing as well as for you to see where you with exposure if you like manual mode.

 

In terms of Leica, there is no experience (IMO) like that of using an M camera. The design informs your shooting from anticipating a shot or scene to focusing and responding quickly with the camera. Exposure is really simple to read in the finder and to calculate or adjust using f stop and shutter speed dial.

 

Also, if the M body wipes your account clean, there are some very nice chrome CV lenses to get you started with your new camera.

 

David

[earleygallery]

You might like to read this thread too

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/film-forum/168420-m2-im-awe.html

[wda]

Hi Folks

....

So its really something to behold and cherish rather than a tool to an end, sorry if this sounds sacrilegious but its the truth....

Brian

 

Brian, welcome to the Forum! You pose a novel question. I don't know how many of your previous Leicas you still possess, but any of them, particularly the D2, would still serve you well today. As for investing in either an X1 or M8, you seem to be placing a strong handicap on yourself by ruling out post-processing. That is a pity because it is not difficult to master Raw processing in Lightroom which comes with the X1. However, I sense that your over-riding desire is to '...behold and cherish' a rangefinder Leica. You can't afford an M8 AND a lens; neither do you want to revert to film Leica cameras. You seem to have eliminated all of your options.

 

I would just use your V-Lux 1 for your everyday needs until your thoughts crystallize more clearly.

[Solar B]

James....Thanks for your input "food for thought" i suspect at some point i will obtain a Film Leica and have looked closely at an M3 ... i also quite fancy an R8 for some reason they are most certainly robust ... my friend suggested one with a Dig back ,but that R Module is a big no no and unavailable on Earth. Now sticking a red dot on an X100 , that would be sacrilegious , my Canon touting friend was not impressed with a previous C-Lux 3 proclaiming his Fugi compact superior, but it was so grotesque and the C-Lux so beautiful.

Unless im mistaken there appears to be a bit of X1 bashing occuring , esp if the X100 has not been properly reviewed yet ?

Oh and no deadlines just Fun Photography .... many Imagers on the Astronomy side take things far to seriously for my liking,

 

David .... Thank you also .... it is very interesting for me to read about the number of people who own both M8 and X1 and common sense would suggest that someone well used to an M8 would not openly embrace an X1 without good reason.

 

Brian

[Solar B]

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Thanks David "wda" ... ive only the V-lux at present as am building up to the next purchase , I think your right and i should not rule out post - processing but its not a priority at the mo.

 

James i have no doubt as to the M2s Credentials .... id settle for an M6 .... so beautiful ... ive just bought a counter top mat with a pic of one on it.

Going back to film would be a wonderful to,using FP4 and Slides through a Pradovit naturally

 

Brian

[earleygallery]

Brian,

 

If you want a digital Leica rangefinder then your choices are limited to the M8 or M9. Leica don't make any digital backs apart from the now discontinued DMR. As I've said, the issue with the M8 (or M9) for you will be the fact that you would need to shoot RAW and learn about post processing to get the most from it.

 

The X1 isn't a rangefinder of course. It's basically a larger sensor version of your Clux (OK yes it has some manual settings, a better lens etc., but in use it mostly works the same way). It's probably the best compact high quality digicam on the market of its type, at the moment.

 

Another thing to consider. If you buy an M2 or an M6, and decide that film really isn't for you, you can sell it on again and get much the same for it.

[hhanebeck]

Hi Brian,

 

IMHO you need to ask yourself whether you want to raise your digital output to a higher level as far as IQ is concerned (X1) or want a totally new experience in your photography (M8).

 

I started out as you have, then moved to the X1. That transition has since left my older digital Leicas heavily underutilized. Also have to say that a lot of the criticisms you read, while true, do not bother me one bit. Once you handle the X1 well, it is good in virtually any situation e.g. you learn to live with the slow focus and such.

 

Just recently got an M8 to dip a toe in the water and it turned out to be the most addicitive camera I have ever held. Even though my IQ now oscilates between great and pityful, due to inexperience and a lack of practice, it is a camera I would not put down, if it were entirely up to me. The M8 simply feels like an extension of yourself.

 

Hence, my two cents are that if you want something for the next few years go with the X1, but if you want a camera for life pick up an M.

 

Cheers, Chris

[pharyngula]

I can only provide you with my personal Leica trajectory in recent years but given that solar astronomy is also my hobby (my primary rig is a Solarscope SF70 mounted on a TV76) perhaps we are also on the same "wavelength" when it comes to cameras

 

I started with an M8.2 and 35 Cron, which I was quite taken with but then decided to ditch it for an MP after longing for film once again (funny - it was the experience of using the M8 that drove me back to film). I am very happy that I did so now several months in. To ease the blow of parting with the M8.2, I picked up a black X1 last month and a 50 Cron for my MP. So far so good - my Leica fix is holding and Sol is getting active again. Life is good.

[phancj]

IMO the M8 is more flexible and faster (if experienced) but you WILL require some PP to get colors and other sutff right.

 

The X1 produces more useable photos OOC.

 

CJ

[stephen.w]

I would second James' recommendation for a film M. There are lots of reliability issues associated with an M8. (Go count the number of 'dead M8' threads on that sub-forum). The X1 on the other hand has lots of build quality issues, but I haven't seen any posts here relating to faulty electronics. I have an X1 and like it very much, but I love my M6, and suspect I would love an M2 or M4 even more.

[ChiILX1]

You want a Leica "to behold and cherish". I'm not sure that an X1 will tick that box to be honest. It's a mass produced digicam...

 

The M9 is a "mass produced" digicam too. The M3 was a "mass produced" camera. If mass production is a criticism, I don't think buying a limited edition Titanium is in this gentleman's budget, nor is purchasing a camera hand made by Oskar Barnack. In fact if "mass produced" is a criticism, it will be hard for you to find anything to buy now a days without criticism, and as far as cameras go, you should construct your own pinhole.

 

I'm surprised to see that you haven't owned an X1 because your criticism of the X1 in the forum has been extensive, qualified with the occasional bone thrown to it once in a while for IQ (which, in the end, is the most important). I'm assuming you've at least played with one in the store? Please explain. As most have said, the X1 grows on you and you learn to appreciate it's strengths (and how to overcome its AF) more over time.

 

Solar B: for the record, I "behold and cherish" my X1. I had the option of an X1 or used M8 when I went to purchase. With an M8 I felt like I was getting a wanna-be M9. For the same pocketability I would want the full frame. But the X1 can be measured on its own. In some ways, it's like the old Leica Standard, including top knobs and extending lens. The production time of the Standard overlapped the production time of two Leica rangefinders- the iii and the M3. The Standard had arguably slower manual focus even. But for some it was the preferred choice, just like the X1 over the M9 etc. It was less expensive and smaller.

 

My point? Digital is a new medium, just like film was a new medium over glass plates before it. It doesn't make a camera less enduring to be digital (unless it was from the 90's when digital was new and the quality was so bad, such as 3mp cameras and even some of those are still around). Consumerism was around during the film days too with the latest Nikon, Canon, Minolta, Fuji, whatever coming out every year. But Leica film cameras have retained their durability and quality image production over the years. At the end of the day, year, decade, century, the X1 will be a camera that produces excellent images, just like the Leica Standard (which is selling on ebay with lens for $700-$3000). The one Achilles' heel being the recharge cycles of the batteries- but I'm sure for this Leica we will be able to purchase them for a long time (see the Digiluxes).

 

I've heard smart people argue otherwise in regards to digital, but they aren't positivists. I expect we will become dis-enchanted to electronics like we did mechanical workings in a way that will make electronic camera repair as easy as mechanical repair. That's the neat thing about Leica too- they repair their cameras regardless of age right?

 

Anyway, my two cents. The X1 is a great camera and you will have a lot of fun with it! So is the M8. But I chose to save the rangefinder experience for the full frame when I have the money, and go for the more "Standard" experience now.

[Solar B]

Well "Thanks" very much all for the input ... before posting here i was leaning towards the X1 but now im not so sure and if anything im now leaning toward a film rangefinder and as suggested that would last forever ... Dead M8s "Stephen" EEK ... just as well i did,nt buy a White 8.2 , but your M8 "Chris" sounds "Really" Good.

 

Doug D is that you ... there are not many i know with an SF70 on a 76 combo (match made in Heaven) you may already know that i use an SV50.

Very interesting hearing about you changing the 8.2 for an MP and X1, oh and a Leica Fix .... thats exactly it .... im cold turkey.

 

Anyway my current Fav is an M6 ... who knows what Tomorrow will bring

 

Thanks for your time

Brian

[Solar B]

Thanks to Bsgraupner for your input , im glad to hear that you really "love" your X1 ... my own experience of the X1 is limited , i have used one in a shop and believe it

better built than all the Cs Ds Vs and Digiluxs i have owned

 

Brian

[Allnm]

Going right out and buying a film M sounds great to me, my Dad had a few film M's and a 3f but I could never afford one. I chose a Zorki 4 and a Fed 4 for my rangefinder hits. They were fantastic, and still available quite cheaply today. If you aren't sure about rangefinders, maybe you could find one of those to see if you like the rangefinder experience, if you do, get yourself a Leica film M later.

 

As for the X1, I have had mine a couple of months and enjoy the fixed lens aspect and, of course, the great IQ. Its a lovely camera to use and mine seems well built and substantial. I keep toying with the idea of swapping for an M8 but then the cost of lenses puts me off. A used M8 from a dealer should come with 12 month warranty and peace of mind though. Still worth thinking about

Allan

[h00ligan]

I wish the warranty was available here!

 

Unfortunately it's up to the buyer should anything go wrong with the m8. I recently passed on an m8 for a few reasons. Price wasn't the main one - which was the pervasive issues with the model. By the time I spent for an m8.2 (issues resolved?) it didn't make sense not to get an m9.

[pharyngula]

Doug D is that you ... there are not many i know with an SF70 on a 76 combo (match made in Heaven) you may already know that i use an SV50.

Very interesting hearing about you changing the 8.2 for an MP and X1, oh and a Leica Fix .... thats exactly it .... im cold turkey.

 

Anyway my current Fav is an M6 ... who knows what Tomorrow will bring

 

Thanks for your time

Brian

 

Guilty as charged Brian - indeed it is me, nice to interact with you on another forum! I have to fess up and tell you I sold both my SV50 and the M8.2 to help pay for the MP and more glass. I do miss the SV50 but had a longing for a film M to last whatever life I and/or the film industry have left.

 

My reasoning was sort of as follows. I really wanted to stay with an M because of the lenses I own in addition to just liking rangefinders. I wanted to go full-frame but could not afford the M9 when it appeared. I also was growing concerned about falling M8 prices and possibly Leica discontinuing film body production altogether. I somehow got a terrible hankering for film again from perusing this site, the rangefinderforum and my old stack of Kodachromes - and so I decided on a newish MP to slake my Leica thirst. The M8.2 had to go and given that I had the SF70, I decided I could also give up the SV50. I have been going back and forth on the X1 for quite a while and I ended up missing the M8.2 enough to finally pull the trigger once the black X1 became available.

 

I think it safe to say that only you will get this analogy but I think of the M9 in the same way I do one of Ken Huggett's SF100s - boy, I'd love to have one but can't justify the expenditure at this point in life!

[JeTexas]

Just to play devil's advocate on the film thing, you have to remember that film is about $6 a roll. Then developing is about $6 a roll. Let's say a roll is 36 shots.

 

I'll shoot 300 photos in a weekend. 300/36 >\= 8 rolls. 8 * $12 = $96

 

Now if you buy in bulk, it's somewhat more affordable, but even just spending $50 a week on film and processing for a year easily covers the cost of an M8 -- if it keeps working for a year.

 

But then again, it's an adjustable/variable cost depending on how much you shoot.

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[earleygallery]

The M9 is a "mass produced" digicam too. The M3 was a "mass produced" camera. If mass production is a criticism, I don't think buying a limited edition Titanium is in this gentleman's budget, nor is purchasing a camera hand made by Oskar Barnack. In fact if "mass produced" is a criticism, it will be hard for you to find anything to buy now a days without criticism, and as far as cameras go, you should construct your own pinhole.

 

I'm surprised to see that you haven't owned an X1 because your criticism of the X1 in the forum has been extensive, qualified with the occasional bone thrown to it once in a while for IQ (which, in the end, is the most important). I'm assuming you've at least played with one in the store? Please explain. As most have said, the X1 grows on you and you learn to appreciate it's strengths (and how to overcome its AF) more over time.

 

Well, you could also say that Van Gogh also mass produced his famous Sunflowers. No it isn't a criticism.

 

I think you're taking me too literally, whilst many M3's and M2's were made, they were mostly hand made/hand assembled precision items. You're comparing a digital watch with a mechanical one.

 

I think most people who are familiar with film Leica's would get the point I'm trying to make, and I think I understand what the OP was referring to. To quote "So its really something to behold and cherish rather than a tool to an end, sorry if this sounds sacrilegious but its the truth". There are many people who buy/collect mechanical Leica's simply because they admire the workmanship and design.

 

No I don't have an X1. Yes I've played with one. I was interested when I first heard about it and would have been a potential customer, but the lack of a viewfinder, the zoomy dust prone lens/sensor assembly, and lack of a filter thread are major deal breakers for me. But no one can deny that despite its shortcomings, the X1 is capable of excellent results. My opinion of course and YMMV.