pop Posted February 28, 2011 Share #81 Posted February 28, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not everyone over 70s is computer literate... Not everyone below, either. Believe me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Hi pop, Take a look here Members' ages. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Åmund Posted February 28, 2011 Share #82 Posted February 28, 2011 Too few answers to draw any conclusion... but I remember that a similar poll, times ago, did anyway show a significant density in the middle aged like me....(54 ) I too have a significant density around the middle (hoping to reach my 64th birthday this spring ) Åmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted March 1, 2011 Share #83 Posted March 1, 2011 I too have a significant density around the middle (hoping to reach my 64th birthday this spring ) Åmund Its the increasing density between the ears which is more of a concern........ Gerry, rising 67 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted March 1, 2011 Share #84 Posted March 1, 2011 Density is a state of mind:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted March 1, 2011 Share #85 Posted March 1, 2011 Density is a state of mind:D Is Density near Den Haag? (My mind is in a state of density. ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted March 2, 2011 Share #86 Posted March 2, 2011 Oops, sorry on rereading my comment above it seems quite inappropriate. Apologies Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted March 2, 2011 Share #87 Posted March 2, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Oops, sorry on rereading my comment above it seems quite inappropriate.Apologies Stephen No offense taken. I was too dense to notice (if there was something to notice in the firest place). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_SI Posted March 4, 2011 Share #88 Posted March 4, 2011 I had wanted a Leica for some years and finally got an M8 in January, so I'm pretty new to this (and loving it btw) and I'm 28. I think the price of these cameras and lenses play a big part in the kind of age groups who can afford to have them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 4, 2011 Share #89 Posted March 4, 2011 2 < 9 but 0 > 90 : Leica Co. can hope to survive for long... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plevyadophy Posted March 5, 2011 Share #90 Posted March 5, 2011 To be honest, although I participated in the survey, it really wasn't worth the bother. It's patently obvious, just by reading the posts of Leica users the world over on various forums that Leica users are by and large a bunch of old farts, many of whom qualify for early retirement or pensioner's free buss pass. That's the stereotype of Leica users and the results of the survey confirm this. The worry is, and I was having this debate with a friend of mine, a now proud owner of a Leica M9 and on the wrong side of 45, that Leica likes to appeal to old school dinasours who reminisce about the "good old days" of film and all metal construction (*). The problem is that these oldies aren't the future of photography, and to be blunt they'll be dead soon. So what is Leica gonna do then??!!!! The younger (the Nintendo, Playstation, Wii, Facebook) generation have no recollection of film etc. So that antiquated mindset of Leica isn't gonna work with this lot; Leica will have to reinvent themselves if they are at all able to. Further, at least in the U.K., Leica are not even scratching the surface when it comes to reaching out to the younger generation (just see what Hasselblad UK are doing in comparison, it's far in advance of Leica's efforts or should I say non-efforts). (*) If plastic is good enough for the space shuttle it's sure as hell good enough for the rest of us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 5, 2011 Share #91 Posted March 5, 2011 And this is a snapshot of the last car I built, and probably the last I will ever build. Tech details available in private. Suffice to say the engine was a Stanford USA PhD's private effort and now the parts are commercial. Very fast ... until last month when valve or roller-rocker config went very wrong. I am dumping all my cars now. I just love to build things of all kinds, including strange cameras that I have never posted, but age has crept up and I am done. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
!Nomad64 Posted March 5, 2011 Share #92 Posted March 5, 2011 To be honest, although I participated in the survey, it really wasn't worth the bother. It's patently obvious, just by reading the posts of Leica users the world over on various forums that Leica users are by and large a bunch of old farts, many of whom qualify for early retirement or pensioner's free buss pass. That's the stereotype of Leica users and the results of the survey confirm this. The worry is, and I was having this debate with a friend of mine, a now proud owner of a Leica M9 and on the wrong side of 45, that Leica likes to appeal to old school dinasours who reminisce about the "good old days" of film and all metal construction (*). The problem is that these oldies aren't the future of photography, and to be blunt they'll be dead soon. So what is Leica gonna do then??!!!! The younger (the Nintendo, Playstation, Wii, Facebook) generation have no recollection of film etc. So that antiquated mindset of Leica isn't gonna work with this lot; Leica will have to reinvent themselves if they are at all able to. Further, at least in the U.K., Leica are not even scratching the surface when it comes to reaching out to the younger generation (just see what Hasselblad UK are doing in comparison, it's far in advance of Leica's efforts or should I say non-efforts). (*) If plastic is good enough for the space shuttle it's sure as hell good enough for the rest of us. Although there's partial truth in what you say the wording you used might have been chosen in more an appropriate fashion. In civilized countries elders used to be deemed a resource and I feel that diminishing them as "a bunch of old farts, many of whom qualify for early retirement or pensioner's free bus pass" might result somewhat offensive. Personally speaking I owe those "old farts" an important share of my growth either technical and cultural since the day I joined this forum and for them I have and will always have only words of respect and gratitude. Besides, Leica has always been practicing a sort of elitist policy. Given the price tags her products cannot possibly be within the reach of everyone's pocket, let alone younger men. I wasn't even born when Leica was in her heydays, still I'm here, happy owner of an M and Leica fan, but I could afford it only after reaching more a financially solid position and this usually comes with career, i.e. years. Regards, Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
57andrew Posted March 5, 2011 Share #93 Posted March 5, 2011 To be honest, although I participated in the survey, it really wasn't worth the bother. It's patently obvious, just by reading the posts of Leica users the world over on various forums that Leica users are by and large a bunch of old farts, many of whom qualify for early retirement or pensioner's free buss pass. That's the stereotype of Leica users and the results of the survey confirm this. The worry is, and I was having this debate with a friend of mine, a now proud owner of a Leica M9 and on the wrong side of 45, that Leica likes to appeal to old school dinasours who reminisce about the "good old days" of film and all metal construction (*). The problem is that these oldies aren't the future of photography, and to be blunt they'll be dead soon. So what is Leica gonna do then??!!!! The younger (the Nintendo, Playstation, Wii, Facebook) generation have no recollection of film etc. So that antiquated mindset of Leica isn't gonna work with this lot; Leica will have to reinvent themselves if they are at all able to. Further, at least in the U.K., Leica are not even scratching the surface when it comes to reaching out to the younger generation (just see what Hasselblad UK are doing in comparison, it's far in advance of Leica's efforts or should I say non-efforts). (*) If plastic is good enough for the space shuttle it's sure as hell good enough for the rest of us. Are we in Billy Goat Gruff territory here? Do I smell a troll? Personally I am looking forward to becoming (if I am not already) an old fart. It is something I aspire to. I suspect my father was an old fart and I admired him enormously. I shall found TOFS - The Old Farts Society - the moment I qualify. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted March 5, 2011 Share #94 Posted March 5, 2011 ... I participated in the survey, it really wasn't worth the bother. ... The younger (...) generation have no recollection of film etc. ... If plastic is good enough for the space shuttle it's sure as hell good enough for the rest of us. If participating in the survey was one tenth the bother of writing your post, then you have serious problem and my prognosis would be that you wouldn't be happy using any camera made by Leica. There are other products which might fit your needs, though. There's a great many things younger people have no recollection of; they may or may not acquire the taste at later stages in their lives, as did some of the people here. Who cares, as long as they lead happy and - hopefully - useful lives? Opting for quality products is a somewhat individual choice. Being an old fart myself, I have no recollection whatsoever of the Shuttle having been made of plastics. Do tell. Am I right in assuming that your favorite diet consists of fish? :D:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted March 5, 2011 Share #95 Posted March 5, 2011 To be honest, although I participated in the survey, it really wasn't worth the bother. It's patently obvious, just by reading the posts of Leica users the world over on various forums that Leica users are by and large a bunch of old farts, many of whom qualify for early retirement or pensioner's free buss pass. That's the stereotype of Leica users and the results of the survey confirm this. The worry is, and I was having this debate with a friend of mine, a now proud owner of a Leica M9 and on the wrong side of 45, that Leica likes to appeal to old school dinasours who reminisce about the "good old days" of film and all metal construction (*). The problem is that these oldies aren't the future of photography, and to be blunt they'll be dead soon. So what is Leica gonna do then??!!!! The younger (the Nintendo, Playstation, Wii, Facebook) generation have no recollection of film etc. So that antiquated mindset of Leica isn't gonna work with this lot; Leica will have to reinvent themselves if they are at all able to. Further, at least in the U.K., Leica are not even scratching the surface when it comes to reaching out to the younger generation (just see what Hasselblad UK are doing in comparison, it's far in advance of Leica's efforts or should I say non-efforts). (*) If plastic is good enough for the space shuttle it's sure as hell good enough for the rest of us. So can I suggest you might like a Lomo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted March 5, 2011 Share #96 Posted March 5, 2011 I guess there is plenty of software available to convert a Leica image to something close to a Lomo. Interestingly the age distribution is rather low if we take 20 as the minimum age for buying anything serious and 90 as the (rough) maximum the average is 55 years. The current data peaks at a lower value - i.e. we are young farts (including myself obviously). The current data gives 51.7 +- 12.9 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plevyadophy Posted March 5, 2011 Share #97 Posted March 5, 2011 Although there's partial truth in what you say the wording you used might have been chosen in more an appropriate fashion. In civilized countries elders used to be deemed a resource and I feel that diminishing them as "a bunch of old farts, many of whom qualify for early retirement or pensioner's free bus pass" might result somewhat offensive.Personally speaking I owe those "old farts" an important share of my growth either technical and cultural since the day I joined this forum and for them I have and will always have only words of respect and gratitude. Besides, Leica has always been practicing a sort of elitist policy. Given the price tags her products cannot possibly be within the reach of everyone's pocket, let alone younger men. I wasn't even born when Leica was in her heydays, still I'm here, happy owner of an M and Leica fan, but I could afford it only after reaching more a financially solid position and this usually comes with career, i.e. years. Regards, Bruno Hi, Yes, theanks for reminding me of the socieities where the elderly are held in high esteem, unlike in the country where I live. And given that I was raised by my grand-parents I know only too well the value of the elderly and their ability to pass on wisdom. So I hang my head in shame if I have given the impression of making a general swipe at the elderly as a whole. My post to which you replied alluded to the mindset that I was criticising by way of reference to film and all-metal construction. Taking your point, I would point to Geoffrey Crawley, a man who died in his eighties, and who was a renowned photographic scientist. This is a man to whom I would never dream of attaching the label "old fart", a man who was extremely foward thinking and who predicted, and in many cases championed, many of the developments we have in photography today. An obituary: Renowned photography scientist Geoffrey Crawley dies (update with tributes) news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums However, the impression I get of the average Leica user is that with their age comes a curmudgeonly disapproval and whining about the modern world, at least in so far as photography is concerned. They give the distinct impression that if they were all dumped on a desert island that 100 years later, whilst the rest of mankind had colonized the moon or some other planet, they would be living in houses with thatched roofs (and still using manual focus). As for Leica quality, specifically build quality, I believe it to be over-rated and the sky high prices are just a badge for some people to indicate that they belong to a high income elite; in the same way that certain pretentious indviduals make out that they like the finer things in life and therefore can tell one wine from another (something that was recently disproved by a blind wine tasting test in which a cheap wine from Tesco supermarket won the award of Best Wine). But Leica optics, well that I have to concede brings a smile to my face Regards, plevyadophy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
!Nomad64 Posted March 5, 2011 Share #98 Posted March 5, 2011 Hi, Yes, theanks for reminding me of the socieities where the elderly are held in high esteem, unlike in the country where I live. And given that I was raised by my grand-parents I know only too well the value of the elderly and their ability to pass on wisdom. So I hang my head in shame if I have given the impression of making a general swipe at the elderly as a whole. My post to which you replied alluded to the mindset that I was criticising by way of reference to film and all-metal construction. Taking your point, I would point to Geoffrey Crawley, a man who died in his eighties, and who was a renowned photographic scientist. This is a man to whom I would never dream of attaching the label "old fart", a man who was extremely foward thinking and who predicted, and in many cases championed, many of the developments we have in photography today. An obituary: Renowned photography scientist Geoffrey Crawley dies (update with tributes) news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums However, the impression I get of the average Leica user is that with their age comes a curmudgeonly disapproval and whining about the modern world, at least in so far as photography is concerned. They give the distinct impression that if they were all dumped on a desert island that 100 years later, whilst the rest of mankind had colonized the moon or some other planet, they would be living in houses with thatched roofs (and still using manual focus). As for Leica quality, specifically build quality, I believe it to be over-rated and the sky high prices are just a badge for some people to indicate that they belong to a high income elite; in the same way that certain pretentious indviduals make out that they like the finer things in life and therefore can tell one wine from another (something that was recently disproved by a blind wine tasting test in which a cheap wine from Tesco supermarket won the award of Best Wine). But Leica optics, well that I have to concede brings a smile to my face Regards, plevyadophy Hy plevyadophy, thanks for your clarification. I trust that your demurrer will result in an act of clemency from the court of old farts and that you'll be ultimately allowed to live Your link to Mr. Crawley was appreciated either. As said, there's partial truth in what you stated, but to be fair enough not all Leica users are old snobs grudging at the world's evolution. The fact that they are using PCs to communicate and using digital cameras should suffice to prove otherwise... My personal opinion - although I have a strong feeling that it might be shared by several other users - is that what often results in an apparently stubborn refusal to change the status quo mainly depends from the fact that the M cameras are somewhat unique in the whole photographic scenario. There are no other digital manual focusing rangefinder cameras left whereas there's plenty of alternatives for those who may prefer autofocus, live view, video capturing, in-camera editing, HDR, you name it. Some of us, not everyone but however a significant share, grew up accustomed with the idea of an essential device taking pictures that allowed being as invisible or transparent and discreet as possible, leaving everything at the photographer's discretion without interfering with - or worse forcing - this latter's decisions. Nowadays the M system looks somewhat antiquated because it is antiquated. The concept dates back to the '30s and reached its peak of perfection already in 1953 when the M3 was launched. Since then Leitz was never capable to improve, essentially because if we take for good Saint Exupery's axiom that perfection is obtained not when there's nothing left to add but when there's nothing left to subtract, then there wasn't anything left to do. Plain and simple. And from what I learned, all further M models were somewhat weaker than the M3 for a reason or another. And today for some of us, although deemed as a necessary compromise, a digital M is the only way left to bridging an older shooting fashion into the modern world. I can't speak about others, but I use my M8 as if it were an M3 however enjoying the undeniable advantages brought by digital technology. But it stops there. I see no need to include everything but the kitchen sink in an M camera. As already said, there's plenty of much better alternatives for those who want something else. I see no point into forcing an M into something extraneous especially when the alternatives are designed from the scratch to take advantage of more modern features. And I still have to come to terms with the idea that my digital M in a few years will be an expensive paperweight when an M3 passed from a generation to another simply needing minor service... I'm aware that rangefinder users are a small minority in the current scenario and that Leica users are a minority in the minority and that either old and young farts like me are a further niche but as said before, the M is the only option we have. Think of us in terms of an endangered species. You destroy our microenvironment, we either disappear or evolve into something that we don't want to become. When one say being between the devil and the deep blue sea... When we'll be all passed away it'll be Leica's business to relegate the M to their museum and invent something to please younger breeds or to extinguish themselves. In view of the above you'll also want to understand that the stellar price tags are a painful consequence. Small production numbers inescapably lead to high prices. And as to bragging around to prove belonging to a high income elite I beg to differ. If there's something I learned very early about Leica users is their general understatement attitude. Take a stroll on this forum and see for yourself how many threads there are about finding a camera bag that doesn't look like a camera bag. Or how many users would happily switch their red dot with a black one. And how many other would appreciate a camera with no logo and letters at all, a la MP. Have you ever compared camera straps made by Nikon and Canon with those provided by Leica? Boldly colorful the first ones, black and humble the latter. And I have the strong feeling that it couldn't be otherwise. To me owning a camera that allows to be as much as discreet as possible hardly mix with bragging around. Sort of antithetic. And again, the relatively late age at which one can afford Leica ownership has more to do with financial possibilities rather than mentality. I craved for a Leica since my adolescent days but by then I couldn't even afford a Praktica (and buying a Zenit or a FED was tantamount to throwing monies in the stove). If instead of having my career today I had to make a living by serving fish 'n chips I'd have no chance to be a leicaist. But this doesn't absolutely mean that I feel somewhat superior to those having more a limited income. I know what scarce monies availability means because I experienced it first hand. Finally, as already remarked tastes may evolve with aging therefore amongst the younger ones who today dismiss Leica as a folly money wise there are some future Leica users. It's only that they still don't know it. Cheers, Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted March 5, 2011 Share #99 Posted March 5, 2011 <SNIP>and reached its peak of perfection already in 1953 when the M3 was launched<SNIP>Nope the peak Leica M (film) perfection is the M2. The M3 still needed all sorts of contraptions to allow use of wide & long lenses. The M2 and the current MP are basically the same, the MP is "mechanical perfection". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plevyadophy Posted March 5, 2011 Share #100 Posted March 5, 2011 Hy plevyadophy, thanks for your clarification. I trust that your demurrer will result in an act of clemency from the court of old farts and that you'll be ultimately allowed to live Your link to Mr. Crawley was appreciated either. As said, there's partial truth in what you stated, but to be fair enough not all Leica users are old snobs grudging at the world's evolution. The fact that they are using PCs to communicate and using digital cameras should suffice to prove otherwise... My personal opinion - although I have a strong feeling that it might be shared by several other users - is that what often results in an apparently stubborn refusal to change the status quo mainly depends from the fact that the M cameras are somewhat unique in the whole photographic scenario. There are no other digital manual focusing rangefinder cameras left whereas there's plenty of alternatives for those who may prefer autofocus, live view, video capturing, in-camera editing, HDR, you name it. Some of us, not everyone but however a significant share, grew up accustomed with the idea of an essential device taking pictures that allowed being as invisible or transparent and discreet as possible, leaving everything at the photographer's discretion without interfering with - or worse forcing - this latter's decisions. Nowadays the M system looks somewhat antiquated because it is antiquated. The concept dates back to the '30s and reached its peak of perfection already in 1953 when the M3 was launched. Since then Leitz was never capable to improve, essentially because if we take for good Saint Exupery's axiom that perfection is obtained not when there's nothing left to add but when there's nothing left to subtract, then there wasn't anything left to do. Plain and simple. And from what I learned, all further M models were somewhat weaker than the M3 for a reason or another. And today for some of us, although deemed as a necessary compromise, a digital M is the only way left to bridging an older shooting fashion into the modern world. I can't speak about others, but I use my M8 as if it were an M3 however enjoying the undeniable advantages brought by digital technology. But it stops there. I see no need to include everything but the kitchen sink in an M camera. As already said, there's plenty of much better alternatives for those who want something else. I see no point into forcing an M into something extraneous especially when the alternatives are designed from the scratch to take advantage of more modern features. And I still have to come to terms with the idea that my digital M in a few years will be an expensive paperweight when an M3 passed from a generation to another simply needing minor service... I'm aware that rangefinder users are a small minority in the current scenario and that Leica users are a minority in the minority and that either old and young farts like me are a further niche but as said before, the M is the only option we have. Think of us in terms of an endangered species. You destroy our microenvironment, we either disappear or evolve into something that we don't want to become. When one say being between the devil and the deep blue sea... When we'll be all passed away it'll be Leica's business to relegate the M to their museum and invent something to please younger breeds or to extinguish themselves. In view of the above you'll also want to understand that the stellar price tags are a painful consequence. Small production numbers inescapably lead to high prices. And as to bragging around to prove belonging to a high income elite I beg to differ. If there's something I learned very early about Leica users is their general understatement attitude. Take a stroll on this forum and see for yourself how many threads there are about finding a camera bag that doesn't look like a camera bag. Or how many users would happily switch their red dot with a black one. And how many other would appreciate a camera with no logo and letters at all, a la MP. Have you ever compared camera straps made by Nikon and Canon with those provided by Leica? Boldly colorful the first ones, black and humble the latter. And I have the strong feeling that it couldn't be otherwise. To me owning a camera that allows to be as much as discreet as possible hardly mix with bragging around. Sort of antithetic. And again, the relatively late age at which one can afford Leica ownership has more to do with financial possibilities rather than mentality. I craved for a Leica since my adolescent days but by then I couldn't even afford a Praktica (and buying a Zenit or a FED was tantamount to throwing monies in the stove). If instead of having my career today I had to make a living by serving fish 'n chips I'd have no chance to be a leicaist. But this doesn't absolutely mean that I feel somewhat superior to those having more a limited income. I know what scarce monies availability means because I experienced it first hand. Finally, as already remarked tastes may evolve with aging therefore amongst the younger ones who today dismiss Leica as a folly money wise there are some future Leica users. It's only that they still don't know it. Cheers, Bruno Thank you for a well thought out response to my rather terse opinions. I don't agree with you on many aspects but it was a well written response all the same. Warm regards, plevyadophy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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