M8 for beginning rangefinder photography?

[Want-a-leica]

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I've been looking around on ebay and other auction sites and used M8s are starting to fall within my kind of price range.

 

I'm mainly interested in these cameras for 3 reasons :

 

1) I want to learn how to use a rangefinder (supposedly this will help your overall photographic skill set). The M8 would in theory be an excellent complement to my Canon 5D MK2

2) My general understanding of the M8 is that when and if you get past its quirks and problems, it can take really great pictures

3) The M9 is way out of my price range at the moment!

 

Assuming I buy a used M8, I'm guessing that this means I don't get the UV filters from Leica. This isn't the end of the world though, they seem to be floating around on the auction sites. My other issue is if the camera goes belly-up on me, how easy (or hard) will it be to get it fixed? There is a registered Leica dealer where I live, but given that the M8 has basically been supplanted by the M9, it makes me wonder how much support there is for it.

 

In terms of price, I've seen an M8 with a bunch of UV filters (very useful) going for the equivalent of almost exactly 3000 US dollars. Does this sound good?

 

Looking to hear from people who have used both DSLRs and rangefinders, plus and minus points, etc. Many thanks in advance.

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[erl]

The M8 is a fine camera, I have two, (plus an M9). There are no problems with support from Leica for any of their cameras. Support will be there way into the future. Some maintenance may require return to Germany which can be slow, depending on where you send it from. I live in Australia and I have to add on about four weeks to allow for turnaround and Customs clearance. Fortunately I don't need to do it often!

 

Note that you must match your IR cut filter sizes to whichever lens(es) you acquire. Depending on what environment you shoot, you may not need them.

[deirdre]

My hand strength isn't what it used to be, so I skipped DSLRs, but I am pretty new to rangefinders (though I did used to own a Mamiya 6, I never really felt expert at it), so I can talk about that.

 

Not having touched a rangefinder in 20 years, I went to a Leica Akademie and took a one-day class, and these are my shots from there. Now, of course, they're not all the shots. I took 156 all told (which you see the first one ends in 067 and the last, if you look at the info in -219, spanning a range of 152).

 

Some are not completely in focus, and many of them didn't frame like I'd expected. Mostly, they exposed like I expected, except for a few (135-141 I wasn't expecting that much super-shade, for example).

 

For a first-day experience with a camera I'd never used -- it was a lot of fun.

 

For an M8, in most cases, you'll want a UV/IR Cut filter, not just UV.

 

Here's why (note this is pretty much a worst-case scenario: hot day in the shade, so lots of IR and not a lot of light to out-light it). This was taken with my M8 with a CV 15mm Heliar.

 

No IR filter:

 

 

With B+W 486 UV/IR Cut filter:

 

[Jeff S]

In terms of price, I've seen an M8 with a bunch of UV filters (very useful) going for the equivalent of almost exactly 3000 US dollars. Does this sound good?

 

Not sure about your market, but in US, places like Dale Photo carry decent M8s for around $2400. Other sources may be higher or lower, and of course condition and usage must be factored. It's worth shopping around, including the buy/sell on this forum. I personally prefer going though a trustworthy dealer (or a known and trusted private seller).

 

Keep in mind that there are several M8 versions, in ascending price: basic M8; upgraded M8 (with varying degrees of upgrade...screen, frame lines, shutter, etc.); and the M8.2. I bought a mint used M8.2 not long ago for less than $3500. Note also that the top shutter speed of 8000th on the M8 goes to 4000th on those with upgraded shutters, including the M8.2.

 

Jeff

[carlosecpf]

I was in the same situation as you are now few months ago. I had a DSLR but wanted to try a rangefinder. Because of the costs involved, I decided to buy an Epson R-D1s instead of a M8. The Epson is a great digital rangefinder for users on a budget. You can find one in good condition in the used market for U$1000-U$1300.

After using the Epson almost on a daily basis and exposing some of my pictures with it in a gallery in NYC, I got completely hooked on the rangefinder way of shooting. I sold all my DSLR related gear and now I bought a second hand M8u.

So a highly recommend starting with the R-D1 or R-D1s if you are on a budget and want to have a great digital rangefinder experience.

[Want-a-leica]

I was in the same situation as you are now few months ago. I had a DSLR but wanted to try a rangefinder. Because of the costs involved, I decided to buy an Epson R-D1s instead of a M8. The Epson is a great digital rangefinder for users on a budget. You can find one in good condition in the used market for U$1000-U$1300.

After using the Epson almost on a daily basis and exposing some of my pictures with it in a gallery in NYC, I got completely hooked on the rangefinder way of shooting. I sold all my DSLR related gear and now I bought a second hand M8u.

So a highly recommend starting with the R-D1 or R-D1s if you are on a budget and want to have a great digital rangefinder experience.

 

I've been tempted by the RD-1 as well, as (if I'm not mistaken) it takes the Leica M mount. But there are nowhere near as many used ones going for sale as there are M8s. Ebay has one last time I looked and it's going for almost 2000 dollars (and it doesn't ship to where I am anyway, so it's a moot point).

 

I'll check the buy and sell on this board too as someone suggested.

 

Appreciate the replies thus far!

[CharlesL]

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Deirdre, you posted an interesting pair of photos, proving the need for an IR filter for that scene.

 

I believe the second shot, though, overdoes it. I brought blue down and red up by small amounts. You were there and I was not, but the change looks more realistic to my eye. It puts some yellow in the sunlit portion of the leaf at the lower left, as well as changing the uniform green throughout the image to gradations of green sliding into green with a tinge of yellow.

 

My problem is usually the opposite. I shoot with a Leica UV/IR filter, but images often have ugly yellow-greens, especially in early winter. I am trying to learn color balance techniques on-scene and in post-processing in order to deal with it.

 

Incidentally, M8's were at about US$2100 a few months ago on eBay (a rough average of the typical wide spread), went up around $200-$300 until a week or so ago, and are now a little below US$2100.

[pgk]

I'm mainly interested in these cameras for 3 reasons :

 

1) I want to learn how to use a rangefinder (supposedly this will help your overall photographic skill set). The M8 would in theory be an excellent complement to my Canon 5D MK2

2) My general understanding of the M8 is that when and if you get past its quirks and problems, it can take really great pictures

3) The M9 is way out of my price range at the moment!

 

My other issue is if the camera goes belly-up on me, how easy (or hard) will it be to get it fixed?

 

Looking to hear from people who have used both DSLRs and rangefinders, plus and minus points, etc. Many thanks in advance.

1) I have M8s and 5D2s - they are an excellent compliment to each other, although out of choice I will usually pick up an M8 and one lens only to carry around.

2) The M8 is capable of superb results. I have A2 prints from M8s and 5D2s and as far as I am concerned they are virtually indistinguishable in terms of technical quality.

3) I saw no reason to shift from the M8 to M9 as the M8 still delivers the results I need from a compact interchangeable lens rangefinder.

 

Leica will support the M8 for as long as they are able to do so - despite some whinging on this forum, Leica have built their reputation on quality manufacture and long term support and I'd be shocked if they changed their goal to retain this now.

 

Lastly, using an M8 and a 5D2 are in some ways very similar (they both have basic photographic controls after all) and in others very different (less precise framing, considered focus, manual metering - I rarely use A - on the M8 requires a very different mindset than the compose and fire that all too easily prevails with the 5D2). If I had to make a statement about using the two side by side I would comment that IMHO the 5D2 is an extremely competent camera and can deliver excellent images even with little input whilst the M8 requires a competent photographer to get the best from it.

 

As for M8 or M8-2 well I actually have one of each and interchange quite happily, although I probably prefer the M8-2 as I don't need the higher shutter speed. If you get one and are prepared to learn its strengths and limitations then I am sure that you will enjoy it. If you anticipate an ease of use similar to the Canon then you may be disappointed

[deirdre]

Deirdre, you posted an interesting pair of photos, proving the need for an IR filter for that scene.

 

I believe the second shot, though, overdoes it. I brought blue down and red up by small amounts. You were there and I was not, but the change looks more realistic to my eye. It puts some yellow in the sunlit portion of the leaf at the lower left, as well as changing the uniform green throughout the image to gradations of green sliding into green with a tinge of yellow.

 

I think for the second shot, the color's actually pretty accurate (doesn't mean it has to be, of course). Both are straight out of camera. I admit to preferring a bit more blue than is natural, but in this case there was a reason I didn't alter either picture.

 

Oh, my one non-standard thing: I shot with color saturation set to "medium high." I was shooting JPEG only that day (running low on hard drive space).

[Want-a-leica]

1) I have M8s and 5D2s - they are an excellent compliment to each other, although out of choice I will usually pick up an M8 and one lens only to carry around.

2) The M8 is capable of superb results. I have A2 prints from M8s and 5D2s and as far as I am concerned they are virtually indistinguishable in terms of technical quality.

3) I saw no reason to shift from the M8 to M9 as the M8 still delivers the results I need from a compact interchangeable lens rangefinder.

 

Leica will support the M8 for as long as they are able to do so - despite some whinging on this forum, Leica have built their reputation on quality manufacture and long term support and I'd be shocked if they changed their goal to retain this now.

 

Lastly, using an M8 and a 5D2 are in some ways very similar (they both have basic photographic controls after all) and in others very different (less precise framing, considered focus, manual metering - I rarely use A - on the M8 requires a very different mindset than the compose and fire that all too easily prevails with the 5D2). If I had to make a statement about using the two side by side I would comment that IMHO the 5D2 is an extremely competent camera and can deliver excellent images even with little input whilst the M8 requires a competent photographer to get the best from it.

 

As for M8 or M8-2 well I actually have one of each and interchange quite happily, although I probably prefer the M8-2 as I don't need the higher shutter speed. If you get one and are prepared to learn its strengths and limitations then I am sure that you will enjoy it. If you anticipate an ease of use similar to the Canon then you may be disappointed

 

Thanks for that. I have no illusions that if I end up with a rangefinder, it will initially make me look like an idiot. The nearest thing I've ever shot to one of those is a disposable But I do quite a lot of manual focusing even with my DSLR, so a camera designed for manual focus only should hopefully not be too impossible. And to be honest I quite like the idea of having to visualise DOF and so on before shooting.

 

I'll certainly keep looking, anyway.

[Luke_Miller]

I picked up an M8.2 demo from a dealer in October 2009. It came with a one year warranty and two Leica IR cut filters. When I registered it, Leica sent me a third. The M8.2 appears to address the teething pains of the M8 and has some features from the M8 upgrade program. I believe the M8.2 is well worth the additional cost over the M8. Mine has been bullet-proof so far and produces beautiful images with my Summicrons. I occassionally see demo M8s and M8.2s available, but they will be priced higher than used models without the warranty.

 

Most of my shooting is with my Nikon D3/D700 and the f2.8 zoom lenses. I do some paid event shooting as well as pro bono shooting for local churches and the Nikon gear is optimal in that role. When I shoot for enjoyment I grab my M8.2 and a Summicron. Not only are the images it produces superior to what I get with my Nikon equipment, but the slower pace of shooting lets me get back to why I enjoy taking photographs. It is also a great refresher course on the technical aspects of photography that I lose sight of in fast-paced event shooting where I depend heavily on camera automation.

 

I think the M8 or M8.2 is a great choice. I'm sure that at some point I will get an M9, but for the time being my M8.2 is a marvel.

[Neil_SI]

Hello All, new user and first-time post here.

 

I am in the same boat, having only shot with Nikon DSLRs over the past 5-6 years. I currently own a Nikon D700 with a variety of top notch lenses, including 70-200mm 2.8 VRII, 85mm 1.4D, 24-70mm 2.8, 35mm f2 and the 14-24mm 1.4.

 

I would like to try the Rangefinder experience and have been shopping around for a while. I've seen a used M8 going for £1.3K, but it needs its sensor professionally cleaned, so I'm somewhat concerned that the price tag highlights some kind of other problem seeing as the general price range I've seen is more like £1.5K to £1.8K. And then I need a lens and probably some additional batteries and memory cards.

 

If there was a place I could loan one, that would be even better, because I'd like to see whether it's really worth paying a lot more for an M8.2 or even worth upgrading an M8 at a later point should I go for one of those. But I've not had any luck finding places that do rentals of these cameras. Does anybody know anywhere in London that does?

 

I personally don't think I'd have a problem adapting and am keen to take a more considered approach and have something lighter that I can carry around with me at all times. But as always, due to the price of the bodies and lenses, it's not a decision to take lightly just in case you don't. I'd love to get the M9 as I do like full-frame, but the price for one is just out of the question at this time.

 

I've also toyed with the idea of film and I know that's another mindset altogether, but I am not sure I would be patient enough with myself in terms of the development and scanning times and would likely become irritated quickly. There is a beauty with doing that of course, but I think that's something I'm likely to try at a later point, after hopefully trying the digital rangefinder route.

[jaapv]

Welcome to the forum!Sensor professionally cleaned? Normally that is as much an owner job as washing your car. If it is so mucky that it is beyond that point I would insist in the seller cleaning it before the transaction.

However, whatever you decide, make sure you get a decent guaranty because there are some cameras out there that need some tlc by Leica, and that doesn't come cheap.

[Paul Glendell]

Like several of you here I too am a Nikon DSLR user, but I had been using my M6 alongside Nikon film cameras for years until going digital. So I had serveral Leica lenses laying around only being used occassionally when I got the M6 out again. I took the risk and bought an M8 on ebay for £1300 from a private seller six months ago. So far no problems. It was a risk but one I decided to take and I must say I am very pleased to be back using Leica again on a regular basis. I use the DSLRs for my professional work and in time will move over to the Leica when I finally feel comfortable with different software and such like.

 

Professonal Sensor cleaning is in my opinion worth it if things have become really bad. I had my Nikon D2xs, pro cleaned for £50 and it was worth every penny. The man in the shop - Mifsuds Photographic in Brixham Devon UK - even showed me what he had done and put the 'pictures' taken from by the camera at various cleaning stages up on a compter screen so show me the problems. I have no connection with company by the way I just use them regularly when I buy things ( not much Leica stuff unfortunately)

 

Good luck to you both with your decissions re buying an M8, I wouldn't look back now though. Re the cost of lenses - Voigtlander are very good for the price.

 

www.glendell.co.uk

[Neil_SI]

Welcome to the forum!Sensor professionally cleaned? Normally that is as much an owner job as washing your car. If it is so mucky that it is beyond that point I would insist in the seller cleaning it before the transaction.

However, whatever you decide, make sure you get a decent guaranty because there are some cameras out there that need some tlc by Leica, and that doesn't come cheap.

 

Thank you.

 

It's available at a local dealer here in London, however I assume it's being sold on commission for somebody. The dealer mentioned that I should look to get it professionally cleaned if I were to buy it.

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

Like several of you here I too am a Nikon DSLR user, but I had been using my M6 alongside Nikon film cameras for years until going digital. So I had serveral Leica lenses laying around only being used occassionally when I got the M6 out again. I took the risk and bought an M8 on ebay for £1300 from a private seller six months ago. So far no problems. It was a risk but one I decided to take and I must say I am very pleased to be back using Leica again on a regular basis. I use the DSLRs for my professional work and in time will move over to the Leica when I finally feel comfortable with different software and such like.

 

Professonal Sensor cleaning is in my opinion worth it if things have become really bad. I had my Nikon D2xs, pro cleaned for £50 and it was worth every penny. The man in the shop - Mifsuds Photographic in Brixham Devon UK - even showed me what he had done and put the 'pictures' taken from by the camera at various cleaning stages up on a compter screen so show me the problems. I have no connection with company by the way I just use them regularly when I buy things ( not much Leica stuff unfortunately)

 

Good luck to you both with your decissions re buying an M8, I wouldn't look back now though. Re the cost of lenses - Voigtlander are very good for the price.

 

www.glendell.co.uk

 

Thanks for your input and information Paul, that's useful to know. I am trying to find a level of quality that is satisfactory to me in terms of the quality of the second hand equipment versus the price and I'm starting to realise what I am willing to pay for the right level of quality.

 

The cleaning service here in London would be done by Fixation. I'm currently awaiting feedback from them on how much it is to clean a Leica M8. I've seen conflicting information of around £40-£60, but if the camera is fine, I'm sure it will be a worthwhile exercise.

 

I have to say that I am somewhat apprehensive about buying from places like eBay as I'm concerned I could be buying stolen equipment or something like that. I've never done so before, but I have seen deals that appear on paper potentially better than what I've seen offered by various dealers.

[ramosa]

I love my M8 and was never tempted by the M8.2 upgrade. The benefits weren't worth it to me. The M8 is a great camera. After three years of use, I can say that it has slowed down how I go about photography, led me to improve as a photographer, and made me much more enthralled by photography. What more can one ask? (Well, I wish the improvements were greater )

[Neil_SI]

I went and took a look at four second hand M8's today and came away with some interesting thoughts that will help me decide ultimately what I am willing to pay and what type of quality I expect for that money.

 

These models included the unit that needs its sensor cleaned, which happened to be the one the salesman was using for demonstration purposes. It was priced at £1.3K and the other models at £1.6K, £1.7K and £1.9K.

 

The first thing that surprised me was the weight of the body. It was a lot heavier than I expected it to be without a lens, but in a nice way. Strangely once a lens was attached, I didn't seem to notice that weight at all and it felt more 'normal' for the size.

 

The £1.3K model was in used condition and had some minor scuffles and dents on the top plate. These in principle really didn't bother me at all. The other three looked practically brand new, but I wouldn't expect such a vast difference in price between them for these kind of marks. The salesman however didn't mention to me that the sensor needed cleaning until I reminded him, so that gave me some alarm bells and on inspection, the dents were along the ridge of the top plate around the corner and to me, looked like it had been dropped. He skirted around my questions at the price difference and just said it was 'priced to sell'. As I wasn't 100% convinced I decided at that moment that this particular model was now out of the equation.

 

I took a few test shots with this model and tried my first go at rangefinder focusing. It was very different, but fairly easy although I realise it will take some practice and getting used to. The photos were a touch soft on screen and I wasn't sure if that was down to my vision as I wear glasses and my technique, or something to do with the sensor being dirty and any problems the camera and the lens may have had.

 

In landscape mode I had a little difficulty seeing the outer framelines, but could see them more easily in portrait mode.

 

I have obviously read a lot about the various grips with the M8, such as the shutter being too loud, the covering being too slippery and the dials being loose and easily changed. But I found none of these things overly concerning.

 

The shutter sounded great to my ears and not that loud. It also felt great to press, though granted, a quieter shutter is always nice. The covering didn't bother me either, though after only a few minutes use, it's hard to tell whether it's a problem or not or more slippery once you've been using it for a long period of time. I'd probably like a little bit more purchase for gripping but it didn't feel anything out of the ordinary or less than what I would have expected it to be.

 

The dials are easy to knock out of position, but I actually do this sometimes accidentally on my D700 with it's various dials and switches.

 

I was also impressed at just how good the black model looks in the flesh. I had previously thought I only wanted a chrome version as it looks ace, but they both look great and I've no problem with which it is now.

 

Overall it was a very interesting experience and a small glimpse that left me already feeling somewhat naked holding it at the time, which was refreshing. They are indeed beautiful bits of kit and I'm pretty sure I do want to have one in my arsenal as a companion to my existing gear.

[RichardM8]

I bought my M8.2 for 2300 euro. It's in mint condition and had only some 2000 shutter actuations under it's belt.

 

The M8 is a great camera capable of producing stunning images and I'm very VERY happy with it. Highly recommended!

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[Neil_SI]

Thanks Richard, that's interesting to know and I enjoyed reading your original posts when you were thinking of getting one in the first place.

 

How long ago did you purchase the M8.2? I have considered getting an M8.2, but also simply upgrading an M8 as well at a later point.

 

2,300 euro works out at around £2,000 here, but the M8.2's I've seen are more like 3,000 euros, which is around £2,500. The M8.2's seem in less supply here as well than the M8, so maybe that's a factor in the going rate.

[RichardM8]

I bought it some two months ago Niel. At my Leica dealer including 6 months warranty. There seem to be less 8.2s around. I guess because it had a short production time of only a year or so before the M9 came out. Must be the most exclusive M...

 

When I decided to go for an M8 I only wanted the 8.2. Not because it's a better camera than the M8 but I prefered the extra features of the .2. The more silent shutter foremost but also the sapphire glass and the other little things. I also think in black it's the best looking M of them all.

 

If you prefer the 8.2 (features) I would be patient till a good one comes along instead of upgrading an M8 that is probably older too. This route could easily turn out to be more expensive as well.