Should Leica introduce a M8.3?

[wildlightphoto]

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.... I guess I rest assured in my belief that the company is, indeed, listening to the things we are saying here and elsewhere. (what they do with that information is, of course, another matter.)

 

What they appear to have done to R users is Leica's business but I've thrown my "Leica Ambassador" title under the bus.

 

There are times when the company's management should listen to the customers, but when production is limited by production capacity, adding a low-end, low-profit model to the catalog would be insanity. Adding an entry-level model would require an investment in additional production capacity which would be more profitably used for high-margin products like the 50 'lux ASPH or S lenses.

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[pico]

[...]I'd like to see them consider the development of new accessories for the Leica, which perhaps they could sell in great numbers. Just for one example, I'd like to see an electronic flash that is far more compact than the existing ones, but which uses TTL technology.

 

!!! I agree !!! That would be terrific (IMHO)!

 

Just a crazy thought here - a flash can be firmware oriented, so having one that can be upgraded with a download might be something quite interesting. Or am I way off?

[Guest jarski]

If not, your very low cost estimates are way off and not at all close to reality.

 

I didn't see any cost estimates, even less "very low cost estimates".

[jaapv]

I didn't see any cost estimates, even less "very low cost estimates".

 

I do...

 

....if the M9 chip was £150 and a cost reduced M8 chip was £60 then that would alter the financial model totally, and these numbers it seems to me would be more in line with reality !!!....

[Guest jarski]

I do...

 

thanks to jaapv, I see it now too!

[jaapv]

Actually, costs of about 1000 to 1500 Euro have been mentioned for the M8 sensor, and the M9 should be a few hundred more. (general prices having dropped).

[WestMichigan]

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"Any "cheap" Leica sale is one that stops the sale of a real Leica."

 

AndyBarton, there is so much truth in that sentence. It's a sad and terrible truth 'for me' because of the economic realities I, myself, live within. I don't find an extension from my reality to where it's 'sad & terrible' for everyone that Leica (writ large) doesn't have cheap options. If Leica Corporation isn't comfortably and consistently profitable year after year, it will go bye bye at some point. Least not without Warren Buffet or Bill Gates taking them on as a Subsidized Charity! Though, there is a 'wonderful' symetry between the goal of 'One Child - One Laptop' and 'One Family - One Leica'. Sigh, I WISH!

 

The biggest obstacle, in my mind, to Leica having a Lower Tier Rangefinder is the question "Where will they build it?". Solms is working gangbusters to catch up on M9 back orders and to fill the retail product stream and at some point will be ramping up or transitioning to the 'next' Digital M. They're also strapped putting out Lenses for the M9 Bodies they're selling.

All Great News, to be sure. What it also tells me is that adding another production rangefinder would require an incremental Decrease in Top Tier Camera production volume or the building of an entire production facility for a camera that has a lower price point and will incrementally reduce the unit volume of the higher priced camera. In my mind that means as a company they would have to expend capital to make a lower profit camera which cuts the volume of their high profit camera or 'upfront' cut production volume of the more profitable camera to make the lower profit camera.

I WANT a much less expensive Digital M Rangefinder, but the Economies of Scale Leica operates within generates some difficult conundrums. At the moment, I think Leica the Company is juggling things fairly well. Time will tell how well they continue to do so. They appear to have transited the World Wide Economic Troubles relatively safely and for now, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

Richard in Michigan

[WestMichigan]

Hi RichAm,

I think there is a flaw in your statement: "Garden variety DSLR sensors do not need the micro-lens and are produced in volume for many DSLRs." Well, a flaw in the way you've stated the line of thought. I've read quite a few dSLR reviews on DPReview.com and I don't recall any which didn't in some way discuss micro-lenses and how nikcansony et al were'nt touting some benefit from how they designed their proprietary microlens array. I would definitely agree with a statement like: A Rangefinder Camera would require a Proprietary MicroLens Array different from that for a dSLR to 'fully cope with' the differing Lens to Sensor distances.

Sincerely

Richard in Michigan

[WestMichigan]

"Companies who fail to grow their business and replace dying customers tend to go out of business."

 

I wouldn't go so far as to agree with everything in your post, but will say that here in the 'States all one has to do is mention 'Buick, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile' and the 'truth' of the statement above is utterly proven. (At least in my opinion!).

 

R.

[RichardM8]

It's obvious that Leica should get their next product managers and company execs from this forum...

[WestMichigan]

JaapV,

Where can I get THAT Chauffeur's Job?

Richard in Michigan

And a gentleman would carry a Blancpain. On a slim golden chain. Wristwatches are so plebeian. The chauffeur may wear a Rolex though

[Guest BigSplash]

"Any "cheap" Leica sale is one that stops the sale of a real Leica."

 

AndyBarton, there is so much truth in that sentence.

The biggest obstacle, in my mind, to Leica having a Lower Tier Rangefinder is the question "Where will they build it?". Solms is working gangbusters to catch up on M9 back orders and to fill the retail product stream and at some point will be ramping up or transitioning to the 'next' Digital M. .....Richard in Michigan

 

Richard I agree with your point here and Doug Herr who made the same point also. Currently the M9 has still a large backlog we are told, but this will inevitably drop as double orders are flushed through the sytem and dealers finally hold M9 stock.

 

In the case of lenses my understanding is that the bottleneck is getting the glass elements which are on long lead times from suppliers. If that can be addressed then they can apparently ship higher volumes.

 

As I say I agree with you IF the current production line for M9 is at full capacity now and there is NO WAY that they can push more units through by making the design more manufacturable, require less adjustment etc. IF that is true then they would be crazy to use up valuable production slots to fabricate a cheaper camera...it is obvious!

 

Now my suggestion is to make the M10 (or M9) easier to manufacture, of higher quality and reliabiity whilst keeping the overall concept the same. Presumably if that goal was achieved they could shove more units down the same production line with the same number of technicians and capital tied up........that means lower cost and allows extra headroom to produce more M9's / M10's if they can maintain the current level of high demand. Remember we have been told Leica sold and shipped in 9 months the amount that they forecasted for the complete M9 production run (3 years?) . Hell if they can keep that up they should NOT introduce a cheaper M digital camera...just keep growing the high end high price camera I agree.

 

My belief is that at some point they have an opportunity to ship the expensive high end camera, and introduce a lower cost version that is a cropped variant, with some features missing.

 

An interesting question is what exactly does Andy mean when he says: Any "cheap" Leica sale is one that stops the sale of a real Leica." . This could I guess mean:

1. Many Leica digital buyers really do NOT want a M9 they want a camera that is cheaper, and that they would opt for a M8 in preference if available at a lower price?
   
2. If Leica cannot make enough M9's today then why introduce a lower PRICE model and I agree.
   

Botto line if Leica could make BOTH a high end M9 / M10 plus a cheaper version using existing facilities and workforce then this has to be the way to go surely provided the quality level of the Brand is maintained or actually improved.

[WestMichigan]

Hi WildLightPhoto!

I'd say you're Spot On regarding the challenges of Production Capacity which is the Reality of Leica in the year 2010. There aren't Leica Factories spread around the E.U. and Canada anymore. As I understand it, Leica consolidated nearly everything into Solms during the 'lean times' and adding production lines &/or product lines would require capital outlays for production lines &/or cutting other production inside Solms itself.

Richard in Michigan

What they appear to have done to R users is Leica's business but I've thrown my "Leica Ambassador" title under the bus.

 

There are times when the company's management should listen to the customers, but when production is limited by production capacity, adding a low-end, low-profit model to the catalog would be insanity. Adding an entry-level model would require an investment in additional production capacity which would be more profitably used for high-margin products like the 50 'lux ASPH or S lenses.

[RichardM8]

"Wristwatches are so plebeian" ?...

 

 

I think a wristwatch is about the only piece of jewellery a man can/should wear...

 

I'd better put my Jeager Le Coultre and Rolex in a drawer then...

[pico]

"Companies who fail to grow their business and replace dying customers tend to go out of business."

 

Dying customers. *shiver* Does anyone have Leica customer demographics? I do not know any young people who own Leicas, not even any who have inherited one.

[jaapv]

"Wristwatches are so plebeian" ?...

 

 

I think a wristwatch is about the only piece of jewellery a man can/should wear...

 

I'd better put my Jeager Le Coultre and Rolex in a drawer then...

:D

[jaapv]

Now my suggestion is to make the M10 (or M9) easier to manufacture, camera

 

 

I understand you visit the factory on a regular basis. Have you got any suggestion how to achieve this without losing

1. The handmade essential character of the camera
   
2. The production quality
   

[andybarton]

 

 

 

An interesting question is what exactly does Andy mean when he says: Any "cheap" Leica sale is one that stops the sale of a real Leica." . This could I guess mean:

1. Many Leica digital buyers really do NOT want a M9 they want a camera that is cheaper, and that they would opt for a M8 in preference if available at a lower price?
   
2. If Leica cannot make enough M9's today then why introduce a lower PRICE model and I agree.
   

 

That's completely about face. How could you read statement 1 into what I wrote?

 

People don't want cheap Leicas AT ALL.

 

Their experience with the Summarits shows that people don't want to buy cheap new Leica stuff, when they can get better, used lenses for the same price. This is why they let used M8s act as the "entry level" digital Ms, just as they did with M4s and M6s in the past. Why would you buy a 35 Summarit, when you can buy a mint used 35 Summicron for the same money?

 

If Leica sell a camera cheaply, and make, say E500 profit, when they could have sold an M9 with, say E1,000 profit instead, that's E500 profit that they will never see.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest BigSplash]

"Companies who fail to grow their business and replace dying customers tend to go out of business."

 

I wouldn't go so far as to agree with everything in your post, but will say that here in the 'States all one has to do is mention 'Buick, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile' and the 'truth' of the statement above is utterly proven. (At least in my opinion!).

 

R.

 

I agree....in UK we can list British Leyland (Rover, Triumph, MG Austin etc) or Jensen, English Electric, Marconi, GEC, Ferranti, Plessey, or British Steel, etc etc. Successful companies tend to listen to client needs, develop innovative exciting products that they will buy NEW (rather than used), and aim to create a business environment that has as its basis an ever growing backlog with prices that are profitable.

 

In the case of Leica there is I am told a new breed of Leica buyer that less and less is based on the people who have nostalgia for the old M film cameras. This new breed as evidenced by those attending the workshops having bought new Leica M8's and Leica M9's is in my view very exciting for Leica going forward. I ask is it not possible to grow this community with a lower cost digital M. .....

 

My son who is a banker has mentioned he may buy a X1 has recently given some thought about a digital M as he recognises the brand, the quality but is not keen on the cost nor the ease of use..Frankly it would not take much to move him towards buying a Leica. Over the last months many people have newly expressed interest when they see me with my M8 and want to know more.

.

[andybarton]

I understand you visit the factory on a regular basis. Have you got any suggestion how to achieve this without losing

1. The handmade essential character of the camera
   
2. The production quality
   

 

Why not just send production to the Far East? They'd soon have digital Ms screaming off the production line.