Jump to content

Should Leica introduce a M8.3?

Guest BigSplash

By Guest BigSplash
in Leica M8 / Leica M8.2

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 163
  • Created
  • Last Reply
wildlightphoto

wildlightphoto

Posted
Posted
Your last paragraph seems to suggest that there is insufficient demand for a Leica digital M yet they sold the complete production run in just 9 months, have attracted a new younger breed of owner rather than M film affectionados. Obviously many people will be put off by the price and that is my point.

 

Frank, I'm typing this VERY SLOWLY so it's hard to mis-read. We understand your point about people being put off by the price. We are not thick, that's a no-brainer.

 

Demand for a CRF camera is limited. It will never reach the sales volume of a mass-production consumer-priced DSLR because it's less versatile, not because of the price.

 

You are suggesting a complete electronic re-design of the M camera around a smaller sensor. The R&D for a re-design has to be amortized over a large volume to reduce the unit cost. A CRF CAMERA WILL NOT SELL IN THAT VOLUME and THE CRF CAMERA'S STRENGTH IS WIDE-ANGLE LENSES WHERE A SMALL SENSOR IS A DISADVANTAGE.

 

Now Frank if you are wiser than Leica's engineers and have specific detailed designs with specific part numbers and costs and production design and a fool-proof marketing plan with guaranteed sales volume then you are welcome to take your plans to Nikon or Canon or Cosina and see if anyone is interested. Have fun with that, Frank. And congratulations, you've made it to my ignore list.

Link to post
Share on other sites
scsambrook

scsambrook

Posted
Posted

Just stopped by for a quick look at progress in this thread . . . Gentlemen (and perhaps ladies too), for heaven's sake, this is merely an internet discussion forum - surely there's no need for people to get hot under the collar ! Life is indeed "too short" for ill humour and bad grace.

 

Everyone should sign the following declaration:

 

"I apologise for being irritating / irritated (delete appropriately) and promise to be less abrasive in future

 

and then metaphorically shake hands before getting on with life.

 

Stephen

Link to post
Share on other sites
tbarker13

tbarker13

Posted
Posted

Advertisement (gone after registration)

It's common to think of digital cameras as ageing quickly but we all seem quite happy to fly many thousands of feet in the air dependent on 30-year old electronics.

 

Pete.

 

Absolutely agree with everything you said. Unfortunately, reality doesn't always mean much in the world of consumers.

We have been trained to believe that our computers must be replaced every few years. The computer makers and camera companies, etc. have done everything they can to make this part of our world. That's how they keep making money.

I have tried to get this point across so many times to friends who want new computers - despite the fact that their old computers still do everything they need them to do.

 

A tiny company like Leica will never be able to reverse this type of thinking. And it would be short-sighted of management not to take modern consumer behavior into account.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest BigSplash

Guest BigSplash

Posted
Posted
Phew, this thread has taken on a life of its own! Still, some interesting points for me, as I am keen to find out more about success strategies of small high-end companies, and specifically what role design plays. There are many such companies, many of them smaller than Leica, of which the watch industry is a good example -- not just Rolex, but some German companies, too. Design plays a big role, as I discovered during a media tour last year. The hi-fi industry is another example.

 

The question seems to have morphed from "Should Leica introduce a M8.3?" to how to make a cheaper entry-level product. But first, who wants one? There don't seem to be many takers for an M8.3 so far. This is not true several people said they would buy one and there is certainly demand from would be Leica owners who are not Leica film M owners (ie those that dominate the discussion here). What has been said is that ther is universal agreement which I also believe that Leica would be crazy to make fewer M9's in favour of some M8.3 when they are severly today production capacity limited.

 

Would a cheaper digital Leica M be possible? Produce offshore to cut labor costs? It has already been done, No it has not unless you mean the Leica CL made by Minolta which as has been said here is a different product, and in any case was a mechanical camera not digital..........but there is a danger that individual pride of workmanship will be lost as the desire for cost-cutting takes precedence. If you are suggesting that pride of workmanship being replaced by sweat labour and /or robots then frankly if they produce a better quality product is that bad? Do you feel that Leica M9 quality due to the hand built nature is perfect and cannot be improved?

 

Hand-made quality and craftsmanship costs, and that's what differentiates top-end products -- not just a label. (Frederick Winslow Taylor and his followers, from what I read, had a dim view of workers' capabilities, and his ideas were widely followed.) Purdie rifles,

 

As cheap as chips? Yes, the sensor costs, and it is quite right that top digital cameras cost at least twice as much as top film cameras used to cost (or in the case of the M7 and MP, still do. Worth checking as prices keep changing). Actually, prices have been falling at the same time as performance has been rising. But at the top end, the difference may no be as apparent. You can now buy a digital camera with a 10MP sensor for maybe a couple of hundred dollars-- it would have cost a fortune just a few years ago. Yes but the 10MP sensor is NOT the only differentiator in terms of image quality, and build quality when we talk Leica. For example the top cover is precision CMC machined from a solid lump of brass and is not an injection moulded item ...this is apparently done to make it more robust especially at the edges and to ensure tighter tolerances.

 

If sensors fall further in price, can we expect to see a cheaper Leica M? Yeah, right! You are correct as cost is of no relevance to market driven pricing, which is what Leica is doing very well.

 

My feeling is that most photographers would prefer to see quality maintained above all else, so long as costs do not soar to absurdly stratospheric levels.I agree [/quote]

 

You raise interesting points but your suggestion that offshore manufacture or loss of pride of workmanship suggests lower quality is IMHO wrong. Quality is usually defined as "Conformance to Requirements of the client" ...on that basis Jaguar has had low quality as they break down too often despite the fact that they use walnut wood for the dash, and Connolley hide leather everywhere. The Renault 5 is high quality because it meets the criteria of the client and at a price that he is prepared to pay.

 

The issue then for Leica is are they making a quality product at a price that the client is prepared to pay. I leave others to think what their criteria is and how much they would pay for that. I also leave it to others to say that THE key criteria for them is that it must be hand built in Germany, without robots. I too would like it that way but I would rate other needs higher. The high end photo industry was centred historically in Germany (Rollei, Voigtlander, Zeiss, Leica etc) and it seems to me that much of this has gone elsewhere .

 

Others have said that Leica needs several years of profitable growth to stay alive and not just a great 2009. I agree with that and I doubt that a highly priced M9 can deliver the backlog on its own. That is why I think they should push a M10 and a lower cost M product that reflects the Leica image but does not compete directly with the flagship.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest BigSplash

Guest BigSplash

Posted
Posted
Umm-- Jaguar ranked second last year in the USA reliability charts right behind Lexus, and a Renault 5 is a contemporary of the M4 pro....

 

I am referring to the several decades of Jaguar prior to Ford taking them over and fixing their QA issues while spending a fortune to do so, and introducing concepts such as continuous improvement, etc via a new management team.

Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardM8

RichardM8

Posted
Posted

Could somebody with the right contacts pls mail the link to the Leica management? The answers to all their questions & problems - including the ones they don't know about - are RIGHT HERE!!

 

Marketing, manufacturing, product positioning, life cycle management, technology, parts puchasing, market knowledge, all this expertise packed to the brim in this single thread!

 

Wheeping engineers, ashamed managers and disoriented production workers will be our well deserved share.

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

Gosh I've rarely seen so much crap, empty assumptions and self proclaimed wisdom packed in one thread so I'll ignore this one from now on. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
spylaw4

spylaw4

Posted
Posted

 

Gosh I've rarely seen so much crap, empty assumptions and self proclaimed wisdom packed in one thread so I'll ignore this one from now on. :)

 

As this thread has not been closed (yet) , I really don't want to ignore it - it's far too amusing! :rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites
tbarker13

tbarker13

Posted
Posted
Could somebody with the right contacts pls mail the link to the Leica management? The answers to all their questions & problems - including the ones they don't know about - are RIGHT HERE!!

 

. [/size]:)

 

Sadly, even if those answers were here, they might not realize it. This isn't exactly a company known for embracing change. (Like when Leica developed autofocus, but sold the technology to Minolta because executives didn't think customers would be interested in it.)

 

 

"The 21st century has been far less kind to the company. Leica has been awash in red ink, careening from one crisis to another. It has churned through three chief executives since 2005 -- most recently Mr. Lee." ---- Sept. 2008, Wall Street Journal

 

 

I like to think that WSJ story would be a bit more upbeat if it were written today. The financial picture certainly seems to have improved. The big question is whether Leica is truly emerging from its dark days - or whether it's just found a temporary respite. I hope it is the former.

Link to post
Share on other sites
hoppyman

hoppyman

Posted
Posted

Pico, I know that this demographic view has been repeated so often that it is widely accepted as fact. However, I am not so sure. Someone out there is buying M9's and many more than the M8's. Anecdotally, here I keep meeting younger, enthusiastic Leica M9 shooters for whom the M9 is their first Leica. Actually I just did a mental head count and they are fully half of the M9 shooters I know.

 

In my view this forum for example has had an influx of first time Leica shooters as well.

Also noticeable from Leica Camera is their higher profile with exposure on the social media like Flickr, Twitter, Facebook, lifestyle magazines etc.

 

Dying customers. *shiver* Does anyone have Leica customer demographics? I do not know any young people who own Leicas, not even any who have inherited one.
Link to post
Share on other sites
andybarton

andybarton

Posted
Posted

No. Jaguar, a car made in Liverpool or in Coventry. They just happened to be owned by a company that has some money and appears to be letting the management get on with what they know. And one that is returning a profit to its parent company.

 

Sounds like good business sense to me.

 

It would have been very easy for its new owners to lift the factory and rebuild it in India, China or elsewhere. Very easy. But they didn't.

 

And one that can be used as an analogy for other quality European manufacturers, maybe?

 

I'd buy a Jaguar if I could afford to run one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
pico

pico

Posted
Posted
Pico, I know that this demographic view has been repeated so often that it is widely accepted as fact. However, I am not so sure. Someone out there is buying M9's and many more than the M8's. Anecdotally, here I keep meeting younger, enthusiastic Leica M9 shooters for whom the M9 is their first Leica. Actually I just did a mental head count and they are fully half of the M9 shooters I know.

 

Thank you, Geoff. I am not so sure either, and I also understand that where I live is far, far from a representative part of the world. I was merely curious.

--

Pico - in the middle of nowhere USA. :o Oh, but a most beautiful nowhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...