New ZM21 - Defects of Just Oddities?

[Keith (M)]

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This morning my Zeiss ZM Biogon 21mm f2.8 (bought from Robert White) arrived promptly, along with Coder Kit 2.0 so that I could code this lens plus my ZM 35 & 50mm ones. Aside from a problem with coding (see other thread) , there are two areas of concern:-

 

1) One puzzle is lost-motion when focusing. The lens has a min focus distance of 0.5m, unlike my 35 and 50mm ZM's which have 0.7m. If the lens focus ring is at 0.5m and then I look at an object at, say 0.7m away, turning the focus ring does not start to move the split-image until the focus ring is at 0.6m.

 

2) Another oddity is that with the 21mm lens fitted, the viewfinder frames are the 50/75 and not the 28/90 as shown in the lens code table. Is this a quirk of the ZM 21? As I have the Zeiss 21mm viewfinder, it does not (I suppose) matter what frames are in the normal viewfinder as it is only used for focusing. I just would like to be sure if that is normal or is there a problem with the mount/lugs on the lens?

 

I would appreciated feedback from owners of M9 who use the ZM 21mm f2.8 as to whether or not the above behaviour indicate defects or are they quirks of the way the ZM relates to the M9. (I should perhaps add that I have only had my M9 for two weeks or so and am therefore still learning about the camera).

Edited November 20, 2010 by Keith (M)

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[RobertJRB]

This morning my Zeiss ZM Biogon 21mm f2.8 (bought from Robert White) arrived promptly, along with Coder Kit 2.0 so that I could code this lens plus my ZM 35 & 50mm ones. Aside from a problem with coding (see other thread) , there are two areas of concern:-

 

1) One puzzle is lost-motion when focusing. The lens has a min focus distance of 0.5m, unlike my 35 and 50mm ZM's which have 0.7m. If the lens focus ring is at 0.5m and then I look at an object at, say 0.7m away, turning the focus ring does not start to move the split-image until the focus ring is at 0.6m.

 

2) Another oddity is that with the 21mm lens fitted, the viewfinder frames are the 50/75 and not the 28/90 as shown in the lens code table. Is this a quirk of the ZM 21? As I have the Zeiss 21mm viewfinder, it does not (I suppose) matter what frames are in the normal viewfinder as it is only used for focusing. I just would like to be sure if that is normal or is there a problem with the mount/lugs on the lens?

 

I would appreciated feedback from owners of M9 who use the ZM 21mm f2.8 as to whether or not the above behaviour indicate defects or are they quirks of the way the ZM relates to the M9. (I should perhaps add that I have only had my M9 for two weeks or so and am therefore still learning about the camera).

 

Congrats on your new lens!

1- Its normal. The leica's rangefinder can't focus under 0.7m, so the rangefinder isn't attached to the lens when you focus at 0.5 or 0.6m. All leica lenses go to 0,7 but some others go underneath it. I have a 28 ZM biogon with goes to 0,5 to and it works the same.

2- I don't know whats the standard framelines are the 21mm shows, but I thought zeiss changed it. When the lenses were first introduced they showed differend framelines than the later lenses. Maybe you have a old lens, or the lens code tabel is made with the old lens. I think its the tabel made with an old lens since you just bought a new one.

And even if you have an older lens. Its still the same model, only a small change in the mount.

It does not affect your photo's. As you say, the standard viewfinder is only used for focusing.

 

So it looks like there is nothing wrong with your lens. Enjoy it

Edited November 20, 2010 by RobertJRB

[Keith (M)]

Congrats on your new lens!

1- Its normal. The leica's rangefinder can't focus under 0.7m, so the rangefinder isn't attached to the lens when you focus at 0.5 or 0.6m. All leica lenses go to 0,7 but some others go underneath it. I have a 28 ZM biogon with goes to 0,5 to and it works the same.

2- I don't know whats the standard framelines are the 21mm shows, but I thought zeiss changed it. When the lenses were first introduced they showed differend framelines than the later lenses. Maybe you have a old lens, or the lens code tabel is made with the old lens. I think its the tabel made with an old lens since you just bought a new one.

And even if you have an older lens. Its still the same model, only a small change in the mount.

It does not affect your photo's. As you say, the standard viewfinder is only used for focusing.

 

So it looks like there is nothing wrong with your lens. Enjoy it

 

Well, that is welcome news indeed! Thanks for the feedback.

[rickp13]

keith

from my experience with the m8, i think you will want to do a bit more research on this coding issue (don't forget the search function here)

 

i remember that successful hard coding of lenses (permanent or semi-permanent 6 bit code with paint, sharpie etc) requires that the framelines AND the coding on your lens flange be the same as the leica lens code you choose.

 

example: if you've chosen to use the elmarit 21 2.8 code, your zeiss lens will need to bring up the same framelines as the leica original. at one time, some dealers offered special zeiss lenses with the 'correct' flanges for use with the leica m8. john milich also offered replacement flanges to accomplish the same purpose.

 

carsten, from this forum, prepared a list of lenses, codes AND framelines. here's a link:

 

Leica M Lens Codes

 

good luck. apologies if i've led you in the wrong direction, but i used the same basic information to adapt a zeiss 25 and leica 21 super angulon for the m8.

 

rick

[lars_bergquist]

Leica M lenses with focal lengths below 28mm (the shortest with a finder frame) have traditionally keyed in the 28/90mm lines. The recent 18mm Super-Elmar is an exception, with 50/75mm.

 

Zeiss ZM wide angle lenses, originally for the Zeiss Ikon camera, produce the 50/75 lines. This difference did not make much of a difference with a film camera, as you have to use an accessory finder in any case. But when M8 and M9 cameras needed correct lens identification from the frame lever switches, as well as from the optical coding, Carl Zeiss started to offer these lenses with bayonets that keyed in the 28/90 frames, if you wanted the lens "for M camera" (so that the dread L-word didn't have to be mentioned). They also moved screws out of the coding area, and gave the lens bayonet a slight groove to protect marker pen coding.

 

Clearly, what you have is a lens that had not been delivered expressly for use on a Leica M camera. You cannot modify a bayonet for 50/75 frames into one for 28/90, because that would necessitate building up metal on the little tab in the bayonet that moves the frame lever. Your lens needs a new bayonet. But Carl Zeiss, or your reputable dealer or agent, can supply you with the correct bayonet, and any competent camera mechanic can install it. You can do it yourself with care and proper tools.

 

The old man from the Opto-Mechanical Age

[Keith (M)]

Clearly, what you have is a lens that had not been delivered expressly for use on a Leica M camera. You cannot modify a bayonet for 50/75 frames into one for 28/90, because that would necessitate building up metal on the little tab in the bayonet that moves the frame lever. Your lens needs a new bayonet. But Carl Zeiss, or your reputable dealer or agent, can supply you with the correct bayonet, and any competent camera mechanic can install it. You can do it yourself with care and proper tools.

 

The old man from the Opto-Mechanical Age

 

Thank you Lars and others. I shall be on the phone to Robert White tomorrow morning!

[arthury]

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Keith,

 

Calling your dealer is useless unless you want to return it. Zeiss will not change the mount.

 

There are 3 ways around it, and you need to pick one:

 

1. use the M9's menu and pick the 21mm lens manually (this is the way I use)
   
2. code the lens with ink and push the frame-selector towards the lens and hold when you release the shutter to get the correct EXIF recorded onto the image. I find this too much of a sacrifice for spontaneity.
   
3. Get a new flange mount yourself from a 3rd party and install it yourself. This may cause focusing issues unless you have a way to re-calibrate the focusing back to normal. Way too many hoops to jump. But, you may have the time.
   

Hope this helps,

Arthur

[lars_bergquist]

Carl Zeiss themselves will supply the mount directly. They have done that for me, once. They have a dedicated mail order service!

 

But if you have one of the old mounts that has a screw in the coding area, do specify that this is the type you want. It is still possible to have a third party machine the old-style mount for coding; I did that with an early 18mm Distagon, and it works.

 

The old man

Edited November 26, 2010 by lars_bergquist

[Keith (M)]

Lars - yes it does have a screw head in the coding area. I have managed to code it but that has proved to be irrelevant in terms of auto-recognition due to the flange conflict.

 

Keith,

 

Calling your dealer is useless unless you want to return it. Zeiss will not change the mount.

 

There are 3 ways around it, and you need to pick one:

 

1. use the M9's menu and pick the 21mm lens manually (this is the way I use)
   
2. code the lens with ink and push the frame-selector towards the lens and hold when you release the shutter to get the correct EXIF recorded onto the image. I find this too much of a sacrifice for spontaneity.
   
3. Get a new flange mount yourself from a 3rd party and install it yourself. This may cause focusing issues unless you have a way to re-calibrate the focusing back to normal. Way too many hoops to jump. But, you may have the time.
   

Hope this helps,

Arthur

 

Thanks. I have coded the lens so could use option 2 but as you say, it is not an ideal solution having to remember the extra step when busy with composing etc, particularly as I will be looking through the 21mm viewfinder!

 

What I have done is to set up a user-profile specifically for the 21mm lens and included other changes (.dng + b&w fine .jpg etc) that I want when using this lens. I just have to remember to change profile when fitting the 35 or 50mm lenses. Not ideal but probably the least awkward.

 

The lens performance is stunning and apart from the question mark over having been supplied with what seems to be old stock, is everything I had hoped for. I spoke with someone at Robert White on Monday but so far they have not called me back as promised regarding the flange/viewfinder frame mismatch. I was also discussing an order for a new Summarit 75mm f2.5 with them but that order may well be going elsewhere now...

[arthury]

Yes, I agree, it's still one of my favorite wide lenses ...

 

 

[jaapv]

Keith,

 

Calling your dealer is useless unless you want to return it. Zeiss will not change the mount.

 

There are 3 ways around it, and you need to pick one:

 

1. use the M9's menu and pick the 21mm lens manually (this is the way I use)
   
2. code the lens with ink and push the frame-selector towards the lens and hold when you release the shutter to get the correct EXIF recorded onto the image. I find this too much of a sacrifice for spontaneity.
   
3. Get a new flange mount yourself from a 3rd party and install it yourself. This may cause focusing issues unless you have a way to re-calibrate the focusing back to normal. Way too many hoops to jump. But, you may have the time.
   

Hope this helps,

Arthur

This is incorrect. Zeiss will supply the correct mount ( I was actually the first one to ask them) and the mount is easily exchanged as DIY.

[Xmas]

The frame selector position can be altered with an elastic band, carry a spare elastic band as they will snap at the wrong time, e.g. the strap lug is useful as a tie point for this. Useful while you wait for better solution.

 

Noel

[Guest gamincurieux]

Maybe I pay too much attention to Ken Rockwell, but for ages now I also thought 11134 was the best code for this wonderful lens. I've always manually set 11134, and lately with my Dremel & enamel model paint I did a proper self-coding of the lens with 11134, but being an older version bayonet it doesn't bring up 28mm lines. Zeiss are currently sending me a new 28mm bayonet flange so I can do it properly & finally have it all automatic (HEAVEN!!), but they've also given me some surprising advice, which is essentially this:

 

"11134 is an ok profile, one of a few ok profiles, but it is not the best profile for this lens in our opinion, please refer to attached information sheet."

 

Both that very interesting info sheet & pic of my self-coding is attached here FYI, and my email exchange with them below to read. You will see that Zeiss recommend coding the lens as one of the 28mm lenses (I don't remember which one exactly, go see the sheet).

 

I've never heard of any profile other than 11134 as being good for this lens, certainly not any 28mm lens profile! Have any of you? I've yet to do some testing of my own to see what works well, but I'm interested to test the water for some opinions before I go definitively coding this new bayonet flange when it finally arrives. Zeiss seem pretty sure that 11134 is not the best profile for this lens... straight from the horses mouth!

 

-----------------------------------

Dear xxxxxxx,

 

Thank you for your inquiry to Carl Zeiss.

 

We did some thorough testings with each of the critical focal lengthes. But just with one individual lens . There can be some slight deviations to our recommendations with your lens . The list should give you just a rough idea for the best setting. So please check out the attached file.

Depending on the lens type there could be some colour aberrations left. In that case use an additional lens profile in Photoshop. But your Biogon T* 2,8/21 should be unproblematic.

 

(See attached file: ZM- Test162.xlsx)

 

Hoping to be of service to you we kindly ask you to contact us again should you need further assistance.

 

Sincerely,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

 

Carl Zeiss AG

Geschäftsbereich Photoobjektive / Camera Lens Division

Internationaler Vertrieb / International Sales

Kundenservice/ Customer Support

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Telefon/Phone: +49 7364 xxxxxxxx

Fax: +49 7364 xxxxxxxxxxx

E-Mail:xxxxxxxxxxxx@zeiss.de

Internet: Startseite

 

 

Carl Zeiss AG, Carl-Zeiss-Straße 22, 73447 Oberkochen

Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Dr. Dieter Kurz

Vorstand: Dr. Michael Kaschke (Vorsitzender),

Dr. Hermann Gerlinger, Thomas Spitzenpfeil

Sitz der Gesellschaft: 73446 Oberkochen, Deutschland

Amtsgericht Ulm, HRB 501555, USt-IdNr: DE 811119940

 

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Your original inquiry:

 

Comment:

Hello,

 

My question concerns the use of the lens Biogon T* 2,8/21 ZM with the Leica M9 digital camera. When using this uncoded lens on this camera one must manually choose a lens profile from the M9's menu, in order to correct vignetting/color shading/whatever else.

 

I wish to ask please, which lens profile from the M9 menu does Zeiss recommend is the best for this particular lens?

 

I have mostly heard that the profile '11134' works best, but I have also heard other profiles may be even better. It is all becoming quite confusing I must say.

 

Please confirm which profile in the opinion of Zeiss is the best for this lens.

 

I am very much looking forward to your response

 

Many thanks,

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[luigi bertolotti]

Why does the camera need to know the frame lever position? Is not the lens code enough to identify the lens?

 

No, indeed in-camera Software does use both the infos (lens code+frame setting) to apply its corrections : in M8 this can be a critcal issue, whilst on M9 the manual setting of the lens can override the problem.

Edited July 27, 2012 by luigi bertolotti

[250swb]

 

I've never heard of any profile other than 11134 as being good for this lens, certainly not any 28mm lens profile! Have any of you? I've yet to do some testing of my own to see what works well, but I'm interested to test the water for some opinions before I go definitively coding this new bayonet flange when it finally arrives. Zeiss seem pretty sure that 11134 is not the best profile for this lens... straight from the horses mouth!

 

,

 

If Zeiss are sending you the latest mount it should both bring up the correct 28mm frame and have a groove machined in the mount to accept paint for coding, so you will be able to test as many codes as you like.

 

Steve

[tobey bilek]

Buy a new mount that brings up the correct frame lines or the coding will not register even if you hold the preview in place.

[Printmaker]

Keith,

 

Calling your dealer is useless unless you want to return it. Zeiss will not change the mount.

 

There are 3 ways around it, and you need to pick one:

 

1. use the M9's menu and pick the 21mm lens manually (this is the way I use)
   
2. code the lens with ink and push the frame-selector towards the lens and hold when you release the shutter to get the correct EXIF recorded onto the image. I find this too much of a sacrifice for spontaneity.
   
3. Get a new flange mount yourself from a 3rd party and install it yourself. This may cause focusing issues unless you have a way to re-calibrate the focusing back to normal. Way too many hoops to jump. But, you may have the time.
   

Hope this helps,

Arthur

 

For about 80 euro, Zeiss changed the flange on mine... but that was several years ago.

 

I jumped thru far too many hoops with this lens and finally sold it after a few red edge experiences. I now realize I may have been a bit hasty. When the stars aligned perfectly, the Zeiss 21 was a spectacular lens.

[microview]

If you decide to set the coding manually on an M9, then the Zeiss chart is interesting as – with the popular 35 2.8 Biogon, they suggest one of the 28mm codings as better suited to that lens than any of Leica's 35mm options.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[bpalme]

Yeah, I think I read somewhere the .5 focus distance is obtainable on the Zeiss Ikon.