S2MP: Simply Too Much Price.

[eronald]

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The S2 is selling slowly - that much is obvious.

The S2 is a nice camera - that more is obvious.

 

Many of us would have already bought an S2 at $10K or Euro 10K. That is obvious too as many here own competitive gear at that price.

 

1xS2=4xM9.

 

1xS2=1.3x4D40.

 

Too much.

 

This product has ONE real issue: Price. S2 luxury pricing has become too much of a good thing.

 

Edmund

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[stunsworth]

The S2 is selling slowly - that much is obvious.

 

Leica disagree.

[Sharpdressed]

You have to compare the S2 to his natual competitors which are Hasselblad H4D-40 and Phase One P40+ or P45+.

 

1x911CarreraS=about 4xVWGolf

 

I too would like to buy a Ferrari at half the price!

[bill]

The S2 is selling slowly - that much is obvious.

The S2 is a nice camera - that more is obvious.

 

Many of us would have already bought an S2 at $10K or Euro 10K. That is obvious too as many here own competitive gear at that price.

 

1xS2=4xM9.

 

1xS2=1.3x4D40.

 

Too much.

 

This product has ONE real issue: Price. S2 luxury pricing has become too much of a good thing.

 

Edmund

 

Don't buy one then. In any event, you are not comparing like with like. There are lots of things I can't afford, but I don't whinge about it.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Paul Verrips]

The S2 is selling slowly - that much is obvious.

The S2 is a nice camera - that more is obvious.

 

Many of us would have already bought an S2 at $10K or Euro 10K. That is obvious too as many here own competitive gear at that price.

 

1xS2=4xM9.

 

1xS2=1.3x4D40.

 

Too much.

 

This product has ONE real issue: Price. S2 luxury pricing has become too much of a good thing.

 

Edmund

 

Are you saying that you really want a S2 but you only have € 10k ?

 

Well, sell the rest of the stuff.

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Exactly - that is how I feel about the new Bentley GT, Im insulted that it do not cost $25.000

 

. then again, if I have to ask the price, i can probably not afford it, but it seems there are lots of people who can and who enjoy driving it. Good for Bentley, and by extension good for Leica.

 

.

[eronald]

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You have to compare the S2 to his natual competitors which are Hasselblad H4D-40 and Phase One P40+ or P45+.

 

1x911CarreraS=about 4xVWGolf

 

I too would like to buy a Ferrari at half the price!

 

Actually, I own a P45+ myself, I've had it since that back came out. Moving to a hi-rez solution well out of Leica's league is fairly cheap for me as an upgrade.

 

Now, to get back to topic, I do think the Leica is a good camera stuck at an awkward price point. If the price were moved down to around Hassy pricing it would probably sell *much* better. And no, I don't think the S2 is a Ferrari, I think it is supposed to be a Mercedes truck, and to compete with the Swedish Volvo truck in a market where professionals value solid hi-grade products. I see a lot of Volvo trailer-trucks here in Europe, many driven by their owners, and they are not cheap.

 

Edmund

[earleygallery]

The price is what it is. I don't see the point in Leica selling the S2 at a loss, presumably they've priced it to make a profit, and others are buying it at that price. If it is too expensive (to sell sufficient volume) then they have a problem to face.

 

Their issue seems to be in building the system to a level which will entice more pro's to buy into it.

[ezc203]

The S2 is selling slowly - that much is obvious.

 

Edmund, come to China (and other places in Asia). Idiots are buying up the S2, M9, 50 Lux in bulk. And more often than not together in one purchase.

 

I can't vouch for the quality of the purchases, but the S2 is being bought up. Quickly too.

[sandymc]

Edmund, come to China (and other places in Asia). Idiots are buying up the S2, M9, 50 Lux in bulk. And more often than not together in one purchase.

 

I can't vouch for the quality of the purchases, but the S2 is being bought up. Quickly too.

 

The way I hear it, the S2 is selling very slowly into the pro market, but well (relative to price) into the amateur market. Which I think is a good news/bad news story for Leica - good news: it's selling; bad news: to those fickle amateurs.....

 

Sandy

[earleygallery]

The way I hear it, the S2 is selling very slowly into the pro market, but well (relative to price) into the amateur market. Which I think is a good news/bad news story for Leica - good news: it's selling; bad news: to those fickle amateurs.....

 

Sandy

 

Please see here - http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/144758-leica-luf-%40-pkina-english.html

 

You will find comments from Leica about sales of the S2 and why amateurs are buying it more than pro's at the moment.

[JMacD]

Leica has always said thank you Asia.

The camera is selling fast there and that is good. So forget about Leica even thinking about lowering the price when they are selling all they can make. That does not make any business sense.

 

I assume you did see the photo in this post:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/145251-first-asian-who-owned-4-s2.html

[eronald]

Leica has always said thank you Asia.

The camera is selling fast there and that is good. So forget about Leica even thinking about lowering the price when they are selling all they can make. That does not make any business sense.

 

I assume you did see the photo in this post:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-s2-forum/145251-first-asian-who-owned-4-s2.html

 

Well, if Leica want to make expensive paperweights - that's their privilege. In Japan, I have heard there is a market for sealed collectible Leica gear, which is X-rayed before transactions.

 

As for that picture, we're all smart people here

 

Edmund

[mwilliamsphotography]

I'd have to agree that the price is a barrier for many no matter how much they may like the S2 system. Then again, so is a $40K Phase One system or Hassey system even if those more versatile form factors are preferred. All established MFD makers recognize this in this economy, and are offering more reasonable price points on entry level equipment. Leica doesn't have the luxury of retro fitting a 31 or 33 meg back to a newer camera ... the S2 is a "one of".

 

I also agree that the most probable lag in pro sales is an incomplete system, and difficulty getting what is already available. The second most probable reason is what to do with an existing system. It's then that cool reason over-rules hot desire.

 

With the improvements that Leica has already made to the S2 since I last test drove one, I believe it would fit the partly changed nature of my paying work better than what I currently use based on the form factor alone ... up to a point. I've seen nothing to date that indicates an astoundingly definitive image quality difference that Leicaphiles love to believe in (including me as a major investor in the M9 system). However, that debate aside, the form factor alone is enough of a reason for certain applications ... even for paying work.

 

"Paying Work", being the operative term here. With no trade policy designed to get people to swap systems like Phase or Hassey have in place ... and no guarantee of value should an S3 suddenly come on line, plus the very reasonable extended warranty pricing from the competition, the financial barrier becomes even more formidable for those with an existing MFD system. Understandable given that a sudden S3 is unlikely, and the system is slow to market anyway so demand outstrips ability to deliver.

 

I still position the S2 as a very desirable exit from the 35mm DSLR rat race, and hope business recovers enough to warrant a nice three lens S2 outfit and be done with it. Probably wouldn't need the redundant H4D/40 kit either. However, my Hassey Multi-Shot studio camera coupled with the excellent 35-90D lens or the HT/S unit, plus use on a view-camera with incomparable digital optics, is indispensable, and not replaceable by anything current except maybe the new Leaf 80 meg titan (and I'm sure a Phase One P80+ back soon to follow).

 

I say "never say never". For now it's just to big a whack to make sense. That could change tomorrow : -)

 

-Marc

[rosuna]

The S2 is selling slowly - that much is obvious.

The S2 is a nice camera - that more is obvious.

 

Many of us would have already bought an S2 at $10K or Euro 10K. That is obvious too as many here own competitive gear at that price.

 

1xS2=4xM9.

 

1xS2=1.3x4D40.

 

Too much.

 

This product has ONE real issue: Price. S2 luxury pricing has become too much of a good thing.

 

Edmund

 

Well, that is right but there is some rationality in Leica's position.

 

Imagine this case: you have a production capacity of 1,000 units per year; you have a world market of about 5,000 rich amateur photographers wanting to pay for the camera; those potential clients accept a price of 18,000 euros which includes a gross margin of 50% over costs (including fixed costs derived from the development of the system, to be recovered in 3 years).

 

Anyway, you will not sell many units to professionals because the system is not complete yet.

 

The first years of the system in the market will be determined by high prices, high margins and mostly (rich) amateur clients. When this segment of the demand (early adopters) is depleted and the system is deployed Leica will make changes affecting specifications and price. Professionals have to recover investments, so the price is a central element here.

 

I guess the S2 camera will be entirely sold to rich amateurs. The S2.2 or S3, in two or three years time, will be different. It will have rich amateur buyers too, but Leica will need a mixed customer base, incorporating professionals.

[sunil]

The S2 is selling slowly - that much is obvious.

The S2 is a nice camera - that more is obvious.

 

Many of us would have already bought an S2 at $10K or Euro 10K. That is obvious too as many here own competitive gear at that price.

 

1xS2=4xM9.

 

1xS2=1.3x4D40.

 

Too much.

 

This product has ONE real issue: Price. S2 luxury pricing has become too much of a good thing.

 

Edmund

 

I think you have this a bit backwards. Leica is in the business to make money pure and simple. If they are able to sell the S2 for $100K, that is precisely what they should do for their shareholders. If the market price is $10K, they should sell at that price or else get out of the "S2 market" if it means they lose money. Leica is not in the business of keeping their clients happy. If they were, they would sell the S2 for $1 and they would have many happy customers. It just so happens, keeping their customers happy (via better service as an example) is important to long-term profitability - but it is a means to an end. The end is profits. Call it capitalism or whatever but it is business. If you dislike the price, you are not a potential customer and the camera is not for you. If you're Leica, you sell for whatever the market will bear in order to maximize your profit. If the price were too high, you would see dealers discounting the product but since that is not happening, they must have priced it well for their supply levels.

[giordano]

I guess the S2 camera will be entirely sold to rich amateurs.

 

"Entirely" we know to be false: there's evidence that some pros and at least one government department have bought S2s. But I agree that well-off amateurs are likely to be by far the most important initial market segment even though the camera is genuinely aimed at professional use. I've pointed out before that Hasselblad started this way too (though there's no suggestion that the S2 has any of the reliability problems that plagued the original 'blads).

[oronet commander]

I think rosuna just nailed it: there's a limiting factor, which is your production capacity. Find the maximum price which will sold all the cameras you make and... profit! During that time, Leica may also complete the system, improve the camera and establish the support network all pros need.

 

Looks like a good strategy to me...

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[AlanG]

See this video about how to buy a medium format camera:

 

Buying a medium format camera

[janki]

Whether we like it or not, we must accept that the digital technology in essentially, has taken over in the photo world, as in so many other areas. For better or worse.

 

The most positive for us consumers is that the mature digital photographic technology has opened a world of infinite possibilities for expression and communication.

The most annoying is perhaps that the technological development is moving so fast, that even very expensive equipment becomes outdated in a few years.

 

The most positive for the photographic industry is that constantly new technical platforms, forcing consumers to always buy new, though maybe we were satisfied with the existing ones.

But the enormously rapid development of the digital technology, is at the same time the photographic industry's biggest threat.

Unless the latest equipment a manufacturer can supply is based on the latest known technical solutions, there is a risk that the product will be a flop.

The higher development costs for a product, the more important it is obviously that not the time has elapsed from the product when it is ready for market.

 

Leica has always had their sovereign power to produce lenses with high optical quality, and cameras with high mechanical build quality, but been seen as littel innovative and always a bit too slow when it comes to develop new products.

 

It seems as if Leica increasingly aim at becoming a "jewelry manufacturer" for people who primarily want a status product. This business-concept might provide enough of a future platform that will let Leica survive, -and there is nothing wrong with being a ”jewelry manufacturer”.

 

However both forward-looking professional and dedicated amateur photographers, I'm afraid, need to apply toward photo equipment manufacturers who are also major within electronics and digital technology. Quite simply because these producers in the digital future will deliver the most relevant and updated products for photographers,

at a price that allows us to replace equipment in line with the rapid technological developments.