Two Dead M9s

[SJP]

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10% of what is reasonable?

that 10% of all M9 owners are aware of this forum. This for me is a reasonable lower bound & and I expect it is substantially higher.

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[elansprint72]

that 10% of all M9 owners are aware of this forum. This for me is a reasonable lower bound & and I expect it is substantially higher.

 

Oh dear; so the hundreds and hundreds of complaints we see here may be only about one tenth of the total. It's worse than I thought.

[charlesphoto99]

Leaving aside Bill's worm in the Iranian nuclear plant and Wayne Rooney's trousers (or did I get the worm in the wrong place?), or even the suggestion that's it's all caused by us in the southern hemisphere living too far from the hamlets of Deutschland, it seems there is at least common agreement that somewhere deep in the bowels of Leica, there is a serious QC, Customer Service and market perception problem.

 

Sure, we could find easy targets to blame. Like employee competencies, sub-contractors, shipping companies and the location of antipodean hermits. But from near on 50 years of experience in commerce, I suspect the cause is more likely to be found in the commitment (or lack of commitment) the company's management is making to QC, the allocation of adequate financial resources, and its listening to the market-place.

 

So like it or not, that brings you full circle back to whether expenditure on projects such as an M9ti for the rich and famous is the best use of the company's resources. It doesn't matter whether those resources are in management, R&D, finance, the professional development of staff, or wherever - if they're not focussed on the best they can be, then the worst they can be will be the inevitable outcome.

 

Is the M9ti the sole cause of this QC and Customer Service fiasco? Of course it's not. No more than Wayne Rooney's trousers are. So I go along with Andy's earlier comment. The M9ti may have played hardly any part in this at all. But it is an outstanding example of a company's misplaced priorities.

 

When the celebration of one head of company's enthusiasm for fine cameras and another head of company's enthusiasm for fine cars becomes a market strategy to be showcased to the world, something's amiss. At a time when the market is still clamouring for M9's, Summiluxes and God knows what else, it's a strangely odd decision and misallocation of critical (and no doubt, scarce) resources.

 

It's what 40 years ago my marketing lecturer described as the difference between "product-in" and "product-out". Product-in is a company listening keenly to the clamour of its market, and ensuring all of its resources are best placed to deliver a product of excellence even in excess of the market's own expectations. In contrast, "product-out" is from a company who thinks it knows it all - and delivers to the market only what the company thinks will be good for the market. Guess which survives?

 

Right now, the market's perception seems to be that deep in the bowels of Leica lies a serious QC and Customer Service problem. There's trouble at mill.

 

An honest and open response from Leica would be welcomed by us all.

 

A very very good summation IMO. Leica need to expend some focus and funds on that which isn't "sexy" such as QC and customer service. As I said earlier it's called hubris, when one thinks they are so great that they can just coast by on their laurels and not do the hard work in the background that needs to be done.

 

I'm pretty sure that Portugal probably isn't the problem - in fact they may take their jobs more seriously than those working in Germany as their asses might be more on the line what with the poorer economy, always looming potential shift back to Germany, etc. I think there's a bit of a mythology Leica and their users have built up around the craftmanship involved in making M's and that it's somehow wizened old clockmakers who eat and sleep with the cameras they work on. It's a job like any other (albeit highly skilled) and I'm sure people come and go, have hangovers, family problems, boss issues, etc etc. Mistakes get made. It's just that those mistakes should never leave the factory, esp when it's as obvious as an overturning mount, very expensive lenses that don't focus properly, badly aligned rf's etc.

 

Of course ghosts in the machine such as mysteriously cracking sensors, shutters failing, etc are impossible to check at point of manufacturing, but this is where service steps in and should bend over backwards for anyone who has already spent their $7K and get them a new or fixed camera asap (and where I come from asap means shorter than two months).

 

Too much to ask?

[eritho]

Of course ghosts in the machine such as mysteriously cracking sensors, shutters failing, etc are impossible to check at point of manufacturing, but this is where service steps in and should bend over backwards for anyone who has already spent their $7K and get them a new or fixed camera asap (and where I come from asap means shorter than two months).

 

Too much to ask?

 

No! It's not too much to ask.

Two weeks would be more appropriate!

[Guest trond]

Dear Charles,

 

I sincerely hope that someone (anyone) in Leica management reads your post!

 

A very well stated comment!

 

I hope this soon improves.

 

My M9 and brand new Nocti is off to Solms next week for focus (re-) calibration.

 

I am just buying a used M8 so I can use the rest of my lenses the 7-8 weeks that Leica will take to fix the problem.

 

This will be the fourth time this happens to me in the ten months since I got my M9 in November 2009 !!?

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[ArtZ]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

I think the answer was given by Rudolf Spiller early this year on the "Welt Online":

 

„Welt Online: Herr Spiller, eines Ihrer neuen Produkte, die Leica M9, kostet 5500 Euro. Wer gibt so viel Geld für einen Fotoapparat aus?

 

Rudolf Spiller: Da gibt es zunächst die Sammler, die jedes M-Modell kaufen, das wir auf den Markt bringen. Es gibt technikbegeisterte Kunden, die eine höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat suchen. Und es gibt die ambitionierten Fotografen, die nicht irgendeine Kamera wollen, sondern eine mit dem roten Leica-Punkt. Die wollen beste Qualität und sie wollen zeigen, dass sie sich das leisten können“.

 

"Welt Online: Mr Spiller, one of your new products, the Leica M9, costs 5500 Euro. Who will put so much money in a camera?

 

Rudolf Spiller: First, there are the collectors who buy every M-model that we bring to the market. There are tech-savvy customers who are looking for a high-end camera with a digital sensor in the full format. And there is the ambitious photographer who does not want any camera, but one with the Leica Red Dot. They want the best quality and they want to show that they can afford it."

 

[Guest trond]

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Seriously People!

 

How arrogant is it possible to be!!?

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[mooky]

It's quite obvious that Leica is over-whelmed with everything now - as per Andreas' comments in brief as Leica said they have orders/sold nearly twice as many M9's as they were expecting. Plus lens demand has also took off - they didn't account for it all or so it seems.

 

They haven't capacity - and when a product line is that overwhelmed the chances for QC issues is equally magnified. In a sense, Leica has very, very limited marketing expertise as well as projected sales estimates. The pattern I see happening is somewhat similar as in the past - they have the design knowledge, but they have yet been able to manufacture a 'modern electronic design' in mass numbers. They need to get someone in to go over and review that. Too, when the new facilities open, then perhaps things will change. Having the money to buy a company doesn't necessarily mean that you have the expertise to run it in a modern market.

 

For years, Porsche had huge rejection numbers off final assembly - the cars needed all kinds of 'tweaks'. They finally called in a Japanese QC team and learned how to do it. The rejection numbers dropped nearly to zero. Maybe the plans they have encompass this, as well a higher capacity. They spoke of swimming with the sharks as to the R10 DSLR, well there are plenty of other types of sharks to worry about.

[Guest trond]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

I think the answer was given by Rudolf Spiller early this year on the "Welt Online":

 

Rudolf Spiller: First, there are the collectors who buy every M-model that we bring to the market. There are tech-savvy customers who are looking for a high-end camera with a digital sensor in the full format. And there is the ambitious photographer who does not want any camera, but one with the Leica Red Dot. They want the best quality and they want to show that they can afford it."

 

 

As of four weeks ago, Rudolf Spiller was replaced by Alfred Schopf.

 

Let´s just hope that Alfred Schopf, has a different perception of reality!

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[SJP]

Oh dear; so the hundreds and hundreds of complaints we see here may be only about one tenth of the total. It's worse than I thought.

So we agree that this forum is a representative group. That is a start. All we need to know whether it is 10% or 90%, it could be that 90% of complaints are listed here as customers with problems will be more active in posting for obvious reasons.

 

If all complaints = 200 then we have 200/14,000 max. ie. less than 2%. Some of the complaints were solved by recharging batteries, some by reading the manual. AFAIK we have about 20 sensor cracks and 20 DoA. I would expect that it will end up as about 20/10,000 once the teething problems have been extracted i.e. 0.2%. That is pretty good going.

[therefromhere]

it sounds like my M8 experience all over again. What is Deja Vu in german?

[Guest trond]

So we agree that this forum is a representative group. That is a start. All we need to know whether it is 10% or 90%, it could be that 90% of complaints are listed here as customers with problems will be more active in posting for obvious reasons.

 

If all complaints = 200 then we have 200/14,000 max. ie. less than 2%. Some of the complaints were solved by recharging batteries, some by reading the manual. AFAIK we have about 20 sensor cracks and 20 DoA. I would expect that it will end up as about 20/10,000 once the teething problems have been extracted i.e. 0.2%. That is pretty good going.

 

Dear SJP!

 

You are totally out of your mind, not linked to any reality in quality production!

 

Even in low cost consumer production, 200 ppm, i.e 0.02% is a total disaster in terms of cost!

 

Only ignorant Leica customers are willing to put up with such quality levels, and willing to pay for it.

 

Stop making excuses on behalf of Leica for their disastrous QC, as it obviously stand right now!

 

The current situation is not acceptable under any benchmark, no matter how low your expectations may be.

 

Leica can easily fix the QC if they want to, but in the current market situation, the only thing that makes sense is to turn out new M9s for all the new Leica customers that will make the basis of the Leica future.

 

Never mind the failing ones, we are loyal Leica customers willing to cope with the sub standard QC.

 

Only, because we know that in the end, when Leica CS and QC finally after 8-10 weeks, get their act together and fix our stuff; the image quality is totally beyond anything else on the market today.

 

I have an D700, 1Ds3 and a 5D2, none of them can comparte to the M9 in terms of image quality!

 

This does not mean that Leica does not have a long way to go in therms of QC.

 

It is easy stupid, easy to fix, they just have to train their operators two or three more days before they are let into production!

 

Even a simple update of the QA checklists with two or three points will do wonders;

 

Focus accurate at 1 meter, focus acculturate at infinity, SD card detected, continuity in all connectors?

 

I am quite sure that this would cut the returns to less than half of what it is today.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[ho_co]

... I think the answer was given by Rudolf Spiller early this year on the "Welt Online":

 

„Welt Online: Herr Spiller, eines Ihrer neuen Produkte, die Leica M9, kostet 5500 Euro. Wer gibt so viel Geld für einen Fotoapparat aus?

 

Rudolf Spiller: Da gibt es zunächst die Sammler, die jedes M-Modell kaufen, das wir auf den Markt bringen. Es gibt technikbegeisterte Kunden, die eine höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat suchen. Und es gibt die ambitionierten Fotografen, die nicht irgendeine Kamera wollen, sondern eine mit dem roten Leica-Punkt. Die wollen beste Qualität und sie wollen zeigen, dass sie sich das leisten können“.

 

Art, please don't stop with the incomplete quotation. There was a lot of annoyance at this report at the time on the forum, and it turned out that the quotation was not from Herrn Spiller, but a distillation by the magazine's editors.

 

Let's not keep repeating erroneous data. I mean, look, you've even got trond believing you!

[wstotler]

If you were head of quality control at Leica how many shutter activations would you do before the camera left the factory? Same with replacing battery and SD card?

 

Would you shake, rattle and roll the camera? A drop test?

 

And would you do each and every camera or maybe 1 in 3 or 1 in 5?

 

Thoughts?

 

How many to test?

 

**Every single camera.**

**Every single lens.**

 

No exceptions.

 

Rigorous, meticulous, multiple-point QC.

 

Precisely because each camera/lens is a hand-made object, the need for excellent QC is increased.

 

 

Considering the small series I am not at all surprised with 20/14000 failure. Considering all the connectors etc. it is not at all unlikely for vibration to cause failures in transit. Just a loose connector could account for shutter faults, clocks not running etc. So maybe all DOA camera's did pass QC because they worked at Solms.

 

Drop-shipping is a vibratory, potentially abusive process.

 

I do indeed wonder if many of the issues are because of problems created in transit. This would mean that Leica has to solve a packaging problem or better ruggedize the innards of the cameras against the rigors of transport. The latter solution would be preferred by users because there is more benefit to the buyer, although the former may be more cost effective.

 

I can only figure that there is some accounting wizardry involved with the QC issue that makes business sense in terms of cash to somebody. I'm speculating that it's OK to have a high return rate for repairs "out of the box" because that kind of "expense"/"loss" gets classed differently on the books. If the QC failures had an immediate financial impact to Leica in a way that tore up their accounting, they'd fix the problem. Or, they've made an internal calculation that "X" amount of immediate returns for repair are acceptable, where "X" is much higher than one would normally expect.

 

Cheers,

Will

[Guest trond]

Art, please don't stop with the incomplete quotation. There was a lot of annoyance at this report at the time on the forum, and it turned out that the quotation was not from Herrn Spiller, but a distillation by the magazine's editors.

 

Let's not keep repeating erroneous data. I mean, look, you've even got trond believing you!

 

Thank you Howard for pointing that out!

 

I apologize for citing the alleged Spiller citation without checking the reality!

 

This should not have happened.

 

Again, I apologize, and will try to check the facts accurately before I "jump the gun" to quicly the next time.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[mhoersch]

it sounds like my M8 experience all over again. What is Deja Vu in german?

 

Deja Vu, I'm quite sorry to say. (Took me four M8 bodies till I got one working copy.)

[ArtZ]

Art, please don't stop with the incomplete quotation. There was a lot of annoyance at this report at the time on the forum, and it turned out that the quotation was not from Herrn Spiller, but a distillation by the magazine's editors.

 

Let's not keep repeating erroneous data. I mean, look, you've even got trond believing you!

 

Howard,

 

Here's the original thread on the International User Forum: Spiller interview in Welt Online

 

I don't see any post from Herr Spiller or from Leica on this issue. So, if there's one I'm not aware and you can inform me, I'll be very happy to read it.

 

I sent an email to Herr Spiller on Mars 19th, 2010... and he didn't answer it. You'll find hereunder the receipt in attachement.

 

So, with all respect, I'm entitled to express and keep unchanged my personal opinion about this issue.

 

No, I don't think I'm giving misleading information.

 

All the best,

Nicht gelesen Die Leidensfähigkeit unserer Kunden ist hoch.pdf

[Maarten]

I am surprised that after more than 75 posts no one asked the OP which firmware the two failing M9's were on.

 

Best regards, Maarten

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest trond]

That does not matter!

 

If the camera says "No SD Card", the firmware can´t be updated anyway!

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[barjohn]

I've been blasted many times for trying to point out the same thing, i.e. that Leica QC and CS are less than sub par. It only took 3 M8's to get a good one, which is why I soon sold it. The hassles, phone calls and emails along with concerns that it too might fail once the warranty was up made the positives insufficient to overcome the negatives. Of all the cameras I have purchased and it is a fair number, the fact that the most expensive one and the one that was supposed to be of the highest quality carefully hand assembled was the only one that failed and repeatedly failed. One could argue that I was just unlucky but it seems there are a lot of "unlucky" buyers on this forum, far more than one finds on other forums of company's that sell far greater numbers of cameras, most of which don't cast any where near so much. However, the worst thing is the poor CS that follows. I wonder how long Mercedes would have been in business if their vehicles broke down on the highway and their response was we are on holiday so send us your vehicle and in about 8 weeks we may get it fixed.