M8 Colors and Post Production Workflow

[crismitchell]

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Hello,

I'm new here and new to the world of Leica which has become somewhat of a learning curve after spending the last 10 years shooting Canon.

 

I've got an M8 with a Zeiss 50mm Planar len and B+W 486 UVIR filter I'm shooting DNG +JPEG and I'm just not happy with the colors i'm getting from this camera.

 

I've got Lightroom, Aperture and Capture One Pro and my images all seem to have a magenta cast to them.

 

Can someone tell me if there is a recommended workflow / camera profile / color correction etc... for the M8. I'd hate to spend all this money and have to resort to shooting it in black and white only ;-)

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

Cris....

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[ho_co]

Cris--

Welcome to the forum!

 

Can you post an example?

 

What profiles have you tried in Lightroom and Capture One? (And in Aperture as well, for those who are familiar with it.)

 

Does M8 have the latest firmware?

 

Are you setting the camera for Auto White Balance, or some other way?

 

How is the Planar coded?

 

You're using Lens ID ON + UV/IR in the M8, right? Is your EXIF registering what you've set the lens as?

 

How do you adjust white balance in RAW? Do you use a WhiBal card (or whatever) in the scene? Or do you just eyeball it later?

 

Just some basics to get us up to speed on what you're seeing.

[crismitchell]

Thanks for responding i'll comment below as per your questions. I've seen some fine examples from the M8 and mine come nowhere close.

 

Can you post an example?

Ok this shot is straight out of the camera and nothing to write home about but you can definitely see what i'm talking about in regards to the magenta color contamination. White Balance was set to Shade.

 

What profiles have you tried in Lightroom and Capture One? (And in Aperture as well, for those who are familiar with it.)

Lightroom - Camera Standard and the Default one which i can't remember the name of at the moment

 

Capture One - M8 Generic and M8 with UVIR

 

Does M8 have the latest firmware?

Version 2.004

 

Are you setting the camera for Auto White Balance, or some other way?

AWB is horrible, i've been basically using the Shade Preset when shooting outdoors

 

How is the Planar coded?

This whole coding bit is new to me, I don't believe that the Zeiss is coded nor is my Voigtlander 35mm, 15mm or my Leica Summarit 50mm. Can you explain to me why i need to have my lenses coded, I thought it was only necessary for lenses wider that 28mm on the M8?

 

You're using Lens ID ON + UV/IR in the M8, right? Is your EXIF registering what you've set the lens as?

Yes this is turned on in the camera settings, i don't see anything registered as far as lens or fstop if that is what you are asking. In Aperture it says Unknown Lens and 0mm in the metadata.

How do you adjust white balance in RAW? Do you use a WhiBal card (or whatever) in the scene? Or do you just eyeball it later?

I've tried using the eye dropper to select white parts of the scene or just using the preset wb settings.

[ho_co]

Cris, I don't have time at the moment to answer fully; and I'm not among the forum's best post-processors. My guess and hope is that some folks with better expertise will soon chime in.

 

...Ok this shot is straight out of the camera.... White Balance was set to Shade....

Unsure here. I usually leave my M8 at AWB. In your image, the picture seems to be pretty fully lit by sun, so I would question setting to "shade." But I do understand the idea of having a standard preset and adjusting in post.

 

What profiles have you tried in Lightroom and Capture One? (And in Aperture as well, for those who are familiar with it.)

Lightroom - Camera Standard and the Default one which i can't remember the name of at the moment

 

Capture One - M8 Generic and M8 with UVIR

I use Lightroom and Photoshop, and have some problems with their color quirks, but at least I know you're trying these things and are familiar with the programs. I have very little experience with Capture One. As I recall, a lot of folks on the forum were unhappy with the two standard Capture One M8 profiles you're using. I believe Jamie Roberts has posted some M8 profiles that a number of folks say work well. Use the forum's search function to find them. BTW, I believe when I need to resort to Capture One, I just use the standard profile; but I'm hopelessly out of date and still using an early iteration of Capture One version 4.

 

Does M8 have the latest firmware?

Version 2.004

Good. Some earlier versions had real white balance problems. We should be able to figure this out.

 

Are you setting the camera for Auto White Balance, or some other way?

AWB is horrible, i've been basically using the Shade Preset when shooting outdoors

As I said before, that bothers me only because I don't do the same. I hope others will pipe up with their thoughts on the matter.

 

This whole coding bit is new to me, I don't believe that the Zeiss is coded nor is my Voigtlander 35mm, 15mm or my Leica Summarit 50mm. Can you explain to me why i need to have my lenses coded, I thought it was only necessary for lenses wider that 28mm on the M8?

There are a couple issues. You're right that coding isn't necessary for lenses 50mm and longer. The shorter you go from 50mm, the more helpful it is.

 

It does a couple things. First, it inserts the focal length into the EXIF. Second, it lets the camera apply vignetting correction for the specific lens (importance varies with particular lens, but 50mm and longer don't need or get much help). Third, it tells the camera how much color correction to apply to compensate for the UV/IR-Cut filter; again, useful starting shorter than 50mm.

 

You're using Lens ID ON + UV/IR in the M8, right? Is your EXIF registering what you've set the lens as?

Yes this is turned on in the camera settings, i don't see anything registered as far as lens or fstop if that is what you are asking. In Aperture it says Unknown Lens and 0mm in the metadata.

Since your lenses aren't coded, you won't get any lens info in the EXIF. At 50mm, it shouldn't make any difference whether or not you have it set to ON + UV/IR. At shorter focal lengths without coding, you might or might not be better off to set it either to ON or to OFF. It will vary with the lens.

 

How do you adjust white balance in RAW? Do you use a WhiBal card (or whatever) in the scene? Or do you just eyeball it later?

I've tried using the eye dropper to select white parts of the scene or just using the preset wb settings.

I work similarly.

 

 

 

Okay, my take is this: You're doing everything pretty close to fine. Having uncoded lenses means there's a bit of a variable.

 

I would recommend setting up a tripod and taking a series of pictures like the one you posted. Use a notepad to record how each picture was made. Use one lens--the Planar is a perfect place to start because it should be the easiest. Make a series with your choice of white balance. Start without UV/IR-Cut filter and do one with LENS ID OFF, one with LENS ID ON, and one with LENS ID ON + UV/IR. Then put the UV/IR-Cut filter on the lens and make an image with each of the same three settings.

 

Now, if you feel like it, you might do me a favor and set the camera to Auto White Balance, and repeat the same set of six images, both with and without the filter.

 

Here's my thinking: 1) Yes, the camera should (almost) always have the UV/IR-Cut filter, so the shots without are probably going to be useless. You could rationally forget about doing those six pictures, but we may discover something unexpected. 2) I'm not sure exactly how the camera responds when told to read the lens code AND compensate for the filter when the lens isn't coded.

 

Sean Reid of http://reidreviews.com/ (a subscription site) is the most complete tester I know. He also has several references to how various non-Leica lenses respond, coded and uncoded. There's also a lot of verbiage on this forum on many of the same topics. (Search for 'coding' and for 'Planar,' for example.)

 

I think the general feeling on the forum is that all lenses should be coded. Down to 50mm you can get away without the coding, but you'll get better results definitely starting from 35mm and shorter. (FWIW, I have one uncoded lens, an old 50 Summilux. I use it with filter, and I leave the lens ID set to ON + UV/IR.)

 

A couple other questions: Is your monitor calibrated? I think Lightroom defaults to ProPhoto RGB workspace. How do you set color space in your finished files ready for export? For the record, which versions of Capture One, Lightroom and Aperture are you using?

 

You mention that you have a 50 Summarit. Is it the current Leica model, or is it an older one? If current, it is coded and could serve as the basis of another set of similar test shots.

 

 

 

Cris, I hope this gives you some kind of handle to start with. I've given very little concrete information, and probably a big part of what I've said you're already aware of. I'm quite past my bedtime and have probably said a lot of things that will strike even me as dumb in the morning.

 

There are a number of people who I hope will pop up and who can probably get this straightened out within a few posts.

 

More information on coding for specific lenses is at Leica M Lens Codes.

 

I promise, the M8 is capable of superb color. We just need to figure out what's wrong in this case. Just as an example on the topic, glance at the very long and old thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/9022-30-x-40-inch-m8-prints.html. There's a lot of excellent information there, and at the minimum it should convince you that the camera will do better than the results you're getting.

[Maarten]

In Capture One I would start with a standard daylight setting.

I normally use 5350 K and -1 or -2 for the tint. The Kelvin value defines the blue-yellow equilibrium while the tint moves the magenta-green setting (my color theory in a nut shell).

For different lenses you might need different settings. In Capture One you can use the sliders, type in a value in the box or -with the cursor in the box- use the up/down arrow keys.

Your example doesn't look too dramatic to me.

[Guest]

Commonly the IRCut Filters that are not Leica branded seem to be less aggressive in their filtering of IR...balance tends to be a bit off.

 

I have corrected the pic with a curve that pulls red a bit and slightly boosts green...saved as a preset under curves labeled as M8 Cut in CS5. Open curve and select not RGB but each color in sequence and lower red values and raise green values for 0,0 and 255,255.

 

You can use this and tweak it as needed for differing sources of daylight...morning, mid-day or evening.

 

 

 

Bob

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M8 Cut.txt

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Here are screen shots of the curves red, green and RGB.

 

Bob

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[crismitchell]

First i want to say thanks to everyone who has taken the time to jump in and help me out with this issue.

 

Ho_Co wow i'd be interested in seeing the detail of your post when you do have time. ;-)

 

This is all great info and it looks like i just need to spend some time testing and making the camera work for me. I guess i'm just use to the consistency and look of my Canons. It's not a bad thing just a different way of working for me.

 

I did do a bit of testing this morning and it seems like that Magenta cast might be a biproduct of using the Shade Preset, I tried Auto WB again and it seems to yeild a much more natural image much cooler but much more accurate. I can always warm it up in Post.

 

What do other users of the M8 do for White Balance?

 

Again thanks for everything.

 

Cris...

[dcoombs]

If you want to warm it up a bit, try the Cloudy setting for white balance. I did this often before the latest firmware update (which you have, too), but to be honest, since then I've been happy with AWB in most situations.

 

I think that doing a series of tests like Howard suggested is the best way to get comfortable with the camera's character.

 

Doug

[jaapv]

What I did was go into LAB colour, narrow the contrast curves in both the A and the B channel, the B channel with a bit of offset to the right to correct the colour cast and apply linear contrast in the L channel. I think your main problem is that you selected a wrong WB to start with (after all, why would you select shade for a sunny subject ) and failed to get the colour balance right in RAW conversion.Oh - and do calibrate your monitor

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[crismitchell]

Thanks guys.

Yeh I'm fully color calibrated on my computer monitor

 

The reason I selected shade was because the sun preset looked a little green on the LCD

 

More experimenting is in store.

 

Cris

[jaapv]

Nver trust the LCD for colour - or anything else for that matter, except the histogram....On the M8, AWB is quite good, one of the best in the industry.

[ho_co]

Ho_Co wow i'd be interested in seeing the detail of your post when you do have time. ;-)

 

Cris, you caught me!

 

I do try to be succinct, but then I keep trying to clarify. And clarify. And clarify...

 

I think my apology was more for the incoherence and lack of helpfulness than for lack of detail.

 

The forum could save a lot on storage costs if they'd just ban me.

[ho_co]

... I guess i'm just use to the consistency and look of my Canons....

Leica does have a 'different' look, a bit cooler than the Japanese. There's even a web page on how to make Nikon files look more like M8 files: KammaGamma .

 

With more familiarity, you may find that Leica's palette pleases you as much as your Canons'.

[crismitchell]

Howard you're funny, watch out or you are going to become my personal Leica mentor ;-)

 

I went out today and did the little exercise you mentioned. What I noticed most is that WB is hideous in all presets ;-) But Auto and Sunny needed the least amount of editing in post. The other thing that i noticed is that I can't tell much difference between UVIR on or Off. I guess as long as i'm shooting DNG I can color correct however if I were shooting JPG i'd be hosed. Is anyone shooting this camera to JPG with decent results?

 

Here is an Auto WB image and the processed version, does this look normal?

 

Thanks again.

 

Cris...

 

Auto WB DNG Straight Out of Camera

 

Edited Photo in Lightroom

[ho_co]

Cris--

I didn't check the DNG, but your JPG looks okay to me; it looks to me like a good neutral version of the real scene. Only you can decide whether it's up to your standards, and whether you want to take it further.

 

As for JPGs, I think the M8's compression may be too strong. I don't think many people use the M8 for JPGs.

 

As for using the UV/IR-Cut filter: Remember, Leica didn't realize the camera needed it till after release. In many situations, results will be okay without it.

 

However, if you try one of your wide-angles without the filter, you'll see why you need it.

 

Chlorophyll greens are a bit yellower without the filter, as I recall. May be a nice effect or not, depending on the situation.

 

Man-made blacks (winter coats, suits, luggage etc) are usually a gross magenta without the filter.

 

Shooting night scenes--headlights, city lights etc--is probably better done without the filter, because the filter can create reflections. (See http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38394-nastiest-filter-reflection-ive-ever-seen.html.)

 

 

As for the ON/OFF settings, the camera may make no distinction with uncoded lenses. As far as that goes, a 50mm doesn't usually require lens ID and filter, so I'm not surprised that you saw little difference among the settings.

 

 

Question: Is your 50 Summarit the current Leica lens or the screw-mount version? If it's the new one, it's coded and could show bigger differences.

 

Question: To my eye, this shot should not have required a great deal of postprocessing. It looks to me as if it shouldn't take more than a few seconds. Am I right?

 

 

Admission: Okay, I already admitted that I almost never use Capture One. I'll confess now that I'm a little scared of Lightroom. I use it for cataloging, but then go off and do my own thing in Photoshop. The only one of your raw processors that I have no experience with is Aperture, but "next to no experience" describes my facility with the other two.

 

 

??: My work mode is different from yours, but I'm surprised that you find white balance so bad on the M8. I'm almost always set to AWB and very seldom do any WB adjustment in post.

[crismitchell]

Hey Howard,

Thanks for getting back to me. I talked to Leica NJ today and have sent them a series of images with the different WB settings to get their assessment of the situation.

 

No the image didn't take much adjustment at all and i've kind of resorted to the idea of just doing a manual wb which seems to be much more accurate.

 

I'll tell you what Leica NJ reports back.

 

Thanks again.

 

Cris...

[tobey bilek]

Shade will put a a warm cast on a picture to correct for blue light in shade. This pic was taken under sun and that is where the WB needs to be set. The camera is doing what you tell it to do.

 

The raw file is still 100% adjustable, so set it to 5000 deg K and the raw file will correct.

 

JPEGS have lost some of the color, but may still be correctable within smaller limits.

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[crismitchell]

Hi Tobey,

Yeh I understand how White Balance works my issue is that all of the presets seem to be influencing the image with either a blue or magenta cast depending on where they are set.

 

I know that on my Canon 5dMarkII when I am shooting outdoors and want to warm things up a bit i will put it on the shade setting and it gives the image a nice natural orange warmness however on the leica it throws a bunch of Magenta into the image and it looks horrible.

 

Again the only way i've been able to overcome this issue is to manually WB in whatever condition i'm working in.

 

I sent the Leica Tech Support folks examples of images photographed with all the settings and they came back to me this morning asking me if i had any leica lenses i could test things out with ;-) Maybe they'll send me one haha i can dream.

 

Cris...

[ho_co]

... I sent the Leica Tech Support folks examples of images photographed with all the settings and they came back to me this morning asking me if i had any leica lenses i could test things out with ;-) Maybe they'll send me one haha i can dream.

 

"Sell, sell, sell!" Tech Support has got the Leica mantra down.