Rick Posted May 16, 2010 Share #21 Posted May 16, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) I tell you, after reading those comments... we are a lonely breed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 16, 2010 Posted May 16, 2010 Hi Rick, Take a look here Telegraph's M9 Review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted May 16, 2010 Share #22 Posted May 16, 2010 Is The Telegraph ... serious...? ... Tourist hospitalized by venomous spider bite on penis There's definitely something wrong with the katipo pictured. Count the legs. Arachnids have eight, right? Depending on whether you count the footpads or the segments sticking up from above the body, this lady has either six or seven. The article says "The spiders usually bite only in self defence." Looks as if that Canadian penis took its toll on this poor creature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 17, 2010 Share #23 Posted May 17, 2010 The 2000 film Nikon rfdrs were as or more expensive than Leicas, but only made as small batches, they were not made to sell, like a MP, they were only sold with kit lenses. The Canons (for example) rfdrs Canon P and Canon 7 in total sold in the same numbers ('59-68) within a thousand or so as M2 and M3 did in total ('54-67), - about 280k Where does the order of magnitude come in? Then Leitz were pro cameras and dictating the technology and Canon and Nikon playing catch up avoiding patents. Then Canon lenses were better, the bodies more reliable. Today Leica are playing catch up, the Ja have pooled their patents... you want me to believe the 5cm lens on the Nikon 2000 rfdr is not as good as the 5cm Lux ASPH? Noel I don't know where you got your numbers, but according to Cameraquest about 100.000 for the Canon P and 4000 for the Canon 7 series. As for reliable.. wrinkled shutter curtains? They are fine and desirable cameras, but compare the number that come up for sale to the number of Leica M cameras on the market - negligible... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted May 17, 2010 Share #24 Posted May 17, 2010 Not a great review in my opinion. Too many sweeping statements and not enough fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted May 17, 2010 Share #25 Posted May 17, 2010 There's definitely something wrong with the katipo pictured. Count the legs. Arachnids have eight, right? Depending on whether you count the footpads or the segments sticking up from above the body, this lady has either six or seven. The article says "The spiders usually bite only in self defence." Looks as if that Canadian penis took its toll on this poor creature. We haven't a picture of the (canadian) victim, and this is necessary for a complete understanding of this case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted May 17, 2010 Share #26 Posted May 17, 2010 I don't know where you got your numbers, but according to Cameraquest about 100.000 for the Canon P and 4000 for the Canon 7 series. I got my numbers from various sources, Stephen Gandy says series 7 more than 100,000 series 7s 16000 series 7sZ 4000 which I considered together in the 61-69 production figures more exact sources say series 7 137250 ... I have a early and late P, and they are 90k apart... I'd not expect the numbers to be exact - the problem was the assertion that Leitz sold x10 times the amount of Nikon & Canon bodies when they were competing, not withstanding the cost differential... My assertion was that Canon was holding its own 59-69, but investing in larger volume products to make more profit. As for reliable.. wrinkled shutter curtains? Stephen says... 'Fortunately, the wrinkles don't seem to affect durability. Nevertheless, they are still more durable than any cloth shutter curtain found in Leica Rangefinders. IF they are nosier, the difference is VERY slight.' My suspicion is they wrinkle in the sun, all mine are badly wrinkled & probably original, but non of my M cloth shutters have lasted more than 30 years, before the ribbons snapped. So Stephen may well be correct, Nikon F and F2 shutters are also very reliable, even when they are wrinkled, that is clumsy people. The Canon P sound has a different frequency distribution, sounds louder... We wont talk about M8 shutters will we? They are fine and desirable cameras, but compare the number that come up for sale to the number of Leica M cameras on the market - negligible... Hey I did not say they were as easy to get as M2, M3, M4, M4-2, M4-P, M5, M6, M7 ... just at the time they outsold Leitz, (they should not be more difficult than M2 or M3 to procure, don't think you have looked.). The dialogue was about what would happen today if Nikon or Canon marketed digital rfdrs, like M9, a latter day Canon P... You used to be able to get them for 'nothing', now a lot more expensive alas, with the boom in LTM lenses provoked by Cosina, still approximately 50% of a M2 though. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 17, 2010 Share #27 Posted May 17, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Anyway, it does not alter the fact that, if there were a profitable business there, the niche would be filled by Nikon, Canon et al. On the contrary, Zeiss, who always said they had the ambition to build a ff rangefinder, last year publicly stated that they were unable to build one at a price that could compete with Leica. And that is a manufacturer with extensive experience of high quality rangefinders, the Contaxes were certainly better cameras than the equivalent Leicas, and with the full electronic might of Sony behind them, not to mention their own digital expertise in various professional applications......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwolf Posted May 17, 2010 Share #28 Posted May 17, 2010 I just don't get this whole "DSLRs are so complicated" nonsense. They are as simple or as complex as the way you choose to work. Aperture priority, AF with center focus spot, focus/recompose, and ready access to EV+/-. What could be simpler? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted May 17, 2010 Share #29 Posted May 17, 2010 I just don't get this whole "DSLRs are so complicated" nonsense. They are as simple or as complex as the way you choose to work. Aperture priority, AF with center focus spot, focus/recompose, and ready access to EV+/-. What could be simpler? John An M2 or box brownie for two, ... Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted May 17, 2010 Share #30 Posted May 17, 2010 In that to adjust them for pure manual operation you have to search deep witihin nested menus. Obviously when you learn the structure then you can do it, but complication is still there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted May 17, 2010 Share #31 Posted May 17, 2010 I just don't get this whole "DSLRs are so complicated" nonsense. They are as simple or as complex as the way you choose to work. Aperture priority, AF with center focus spot, focus/recompose, and ready access to EV+/-. What could be simpler? John Fully agree with that. It gets complicated only if you want to use it in a complicated way and fiddle with all those lighting optimization related settings (which are mostly irrelevant if you shoot RAW, btw). My main gripe with DSLRs would be bulk and weight, not complexity of operation. I was sorely reminded of that during a recent holiday in the Maldives, when I decided to take my Canon 5D MkII and 5 L primes and zooms instead of my Leica gear - and my camera bag ended up weighing over 10 kg. I only did this because I felt guilty about the fact that the Canon gear had been sitting on the shelf for a while and wasn't seeing the use it deserved... Bottom line: I took less pictures than I would have liked, because I didn't want to carry the DSLR beast with me all the time. Of those pictures, no more than 10-15% would not have been possible with my M9/M8 as they required a long zoom lens. And I felt that some of the remaining ones would probably have been better with Leica lenses. From now on, I'll leave guilt behind and only accept to carry my DSLR when I expect to need long lenses and/or fast autofocus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted May 17, 2010 Share #32 Posted May 17, 2010 We haven't a picture of the (canadian) victim, and this is necessary for a complete understanding of this case. Good point, Rubén! He's probably got a lot to hide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted May 17, 2010 Share #33 Posted May 17, 2010 There's definitely something wrong with the katipo pictured. Count the legs. Arachnids have eight, right? ... And it's not a Katipo. Katipos have an orange stripe down their backs not red spots. My guess is a Black Widow with measles. Well spotted about the number of legs, Howard, but however many legs it had I just would not want to get bitten there by a spider ... or anything come to that. My eyes are watering just thinking about it. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwolf Posted May 17, 2010 Share #34 Posted May 17, 2010 Ecar, I enjoyed your web site very much. You sure do get around. It's always fascinating to see how the rest of the world lives. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted May 17, 2010 Share #35 Posted May 17, 2010 Thank you John. Much appreciated. Yes, I get to travel quite a bit. Actually, substantially more than the photos on my site would suggest... Your comment made me browse through your site: great bw work, very graphic and suggestive with strong compositions (I have a sweet tooth for the square format...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted May 18, 2010 Share #36 Posted May 18, 2010 And it's not a Katipo. ... Interesting, Pete. We're back to Rubén's original question, aren't we? Just what kind of paper is the Telegraph? Canadian citizen. In New Zealand. Spider bite. Reported in London paper? Okay, okay, it's all part of the Commonwealth, but a vacationing Canadian gets bitten by an endangered spider--this is a big story? Anywhere? And on top of that, the illustration is wrong. The story is fishy from the get-go. You s'pose it was planted to lead us away from the M9 review? Isn't Canon about to add a Katipo Commemorative Catadioptric Kit to their Canon Collectibles series? The story is a plant! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted May 18, 2010 Share #37 Posted May 18, 2010 I just don't get this whole "DSLRs are so complicated" nonsense. They are as simple or as complex as the way you choose to work. Aperture priority, AF with center focus spot, focus/recompose, and ready access to EV+/-. What could be simpler? John Quite frankly, any M camera is much simpler than that.... it's design simplicity the reviewers usually talk about, and Leica has that, while Canon and Nikon mainly don't. Walk up to an M body and you know how to adjust aperture, shutter, and how to gain focus. Walk up to any 5 Canons or Nikons and you'll be doing something different for each one, and sometimes for individual bodies, since things like AF or aperture choice can be swapped around to different buttons on many cameras. Ok, I know what you're saying, and for average results you're right: turn it on, find P mode, and "adjust" as you like. OTH, I would miss too many shots working that way, trying to outguess the camera. That, to me, is too complicated. BTW--I'm not saying that any of this results in better pictures from one or the other. For me, though, not having to think about the camera means something like an M... or a D3 with all the auto stuff except AF turned off. And when I fight with my D3 over focus, I mentally give another point to the Ms Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestMichigan Posted May 18, 2010 Share #38 Posted May 18, 2010 I can back up Misha's noting dpreview not 'publishing' their M9 Review. But it's more of shades of grey than a black and white 'ommission' of reviewing it at all. They have 'pieces' of their review being posted as they finish and have some fairly decent 'sample images' posted as part of it, too. Given the truck loads of new cameras, revised cameras, and lenses, being cranked out by manufacturers, especially point and shoots! I give them a little slack on the whether they've put 'finished' to the M9 Review. They've also re-vamped their website quite dramatically recently, revamped their review process, and are 'attempting' to re-evaluate previous reviews to express their conclusions based on the 'new' benchmarks and results presentation process. phew! Too Many Words To Just Say They're Hands Have Been Full Lately! Cut em some Slack. Will Ya? I'm not a dpReview fanboy - I have quibles big and small with the site, but I also recognize their site as being a nifty resource and as a 'used' equipment buyer I am grateful for them leaving all their archive reviews and sample pict's up for my usage and access. Richard in Michigan its strange that after 9 months on the market dpreview has yet to publish its review. misha PHOTOGRAPHY BY MISHA FRIEDMAN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted May 18, 2010 Share #39 Posted May 18, 2010 The real truth is that: When you have 2 devices that perform the same tasks and results the same with little or no difference in their results, and one is : mechanically simpler, smaller, lighter and simpler to use then this is the superior device. This is exactly the case with current Leica M9 and -any- dSLR made from Japan. There are very small differences between the two but we should realize that Leica only just entered the digital market, and the M system can be developed even further. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted May 18, 2010 Share #40 Posted May 18, 2010 When you have 2 devices that perform the same tasks and results the same with little or no difference in their results, and one is : mechanically simpler, smaller, lighter and simpler to use then this is the superior device. I hereby nominate this as Diogenis' Corollary to Occam's Razor. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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