To crop or not to crop.....

[NB23]

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.. Stupid.

 

Yes, as I said, cropping is a part of sloppy work, sloppy composition. In this case the job was sloppy as I could have moved in closer.

 

And since you seem to know my body of work, to what percentage does this cropped image amount to, in relation to all the others? somewhere around 0.01% is my calculation.

 

Yes, cropping is a part of sloppy work, IMO. Just as is extensive post-processing. The image of the sheppard walking on Planet Mars is the best example.

[azzo]

Yes, as I said, cropping is a part of sloppy work, sloppy composition. In this case the job was sloppy as I could have moved in closer.

 

And since you seem to know my body of work, to what percentage does this cropped image amount to, in relation to all the others? somewhere around 0.01% is my calculation.

 

Yes, cropping is a part of sloppy work, IMO. Just as is extensive post-processing. The image of the sheppard walking on Planet Mars is the best example.

 

 

That is your calculation. The issue here is that, it IS cropped. And btw, it isn't even properly cropped. Now, that IS what I call sloppy work. It is when you try to salvage an image by cropping and making a mess out of it !

 

Now professore, please explain to us all, just HOW did you come to the conclusion that my Shepherd & Sheep photo has extensive post-processing !

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[NB23]

That is your calculation. The issue here is that, it IS cropped. And btw, it isn't even properly cropped. Now, that IS what I call sloppy work. It is when you try to salvage an image by cropping and making a mess out of it !

 

Now professore, please explain to us all, just HOW did you come to the conclusion that my Shepherd & Sheep photo has extensive post-processing !

 

Since I roll my film, the last shot on every roll is cropped to some extent. I will check my negs. There is a high chance that the image in question was like that on the neg itself.

 

Your shepherd photo? The conclusion is very easy. I just asked my grandma what she thought of it and she replied with a question: "On what planet was it taken?"

[azzo]

Since I roll my film, the last shot on every roll is cropped to some extent. I will check my negs. There is a high chance that the image in question was like that on the neg itself.

 

Your shepherd photo? The conclusion is very easy. I just asked my grandma what she thought of it and she replied with a question: "On what planet was it taken?"

 

I thought you spoke about post-processing! .. Explain the "extensive post-processing."

Tell grandma to keep on knitting. WT@ does she know !

[NB23]

Everything.

[azzo]

Everything.

 

I was right from the start about you.

You talk too much but your words mean nothing!

 

ps: Was it an 18 wheeler that ran over your chick? Just curious.

[Guest]

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Hi, Azzo!

Came across another series of posts of yours here.

Please help me understand:

is the gentleman you exchange insults with a friend of yours and you guys love exchanging insults in public as a ritual?

If not, why not hit the ignore button and do other things instead? We all know that you can give answers, too.

I guess I remember Rolo writing somewhere, that you're a friend of his, so maybe this here is a bit out of your usual style?

 

Have a good Sunday!

 

YOUR PICS ARE GREAT!

Take it easy!

 

Ciao,

Simone

[chrism]

Simone,

Consider this: is it reasonable to suggest to us that if we choose to crop our negatives we are "sloppy"? After importing a digital file (be it a RAW from the M9, or a scan of a neg from the M7, MP, or either of my medium format cameras) the first thing I do is to crop if I think it will make the final output stronger. I'm no expert on post-processing, and that which I do had best be done on the part of the image I want other people to see. Should I ever acquire such magical abilities as one of the protagonists above, such that I can visualise and capture every final image on the spur of the moment, I shall be very grateful and will join his side in this debate. Since I am currently an amateur who simply enjoys the occasional worthwhile result, I shall continue to crop to make the best of what I shoot, and hope to attain the nirvana of total foreknowledge in the unspecified future!

 

Chris

[azzo]

Simone and Chris and others who might come across ...

 

On the contrary to what NB23 is best known for here on the Forum, I instead try to help others. It is something I have done from the very beginning. Some might even vouch for that.

 

When I come across harsh comments, comments with no constructive criticism in them, they make me 'mad'.

Instead of trying to help, this guy NB23 comes down hard on members.

The way I see it, he has no right doing so!

 

 

ps @ Simone - Rolo is a very good friend of mine.

Edited May 9, 2010 by azzo

[Guest]

Hi Chris,

 

Pleasure meeting you!

I crop, too. More often than not.

Except my square Rolleiflex prints, that for the sake of uniformity have to keep their proportions (sometimes cropped, also , but please don't tell anyone).

 

Though my compo is mostly what Ian Berry called "helpless snapshots" in a book that Andy Piper recommended on this -the customer- forum ("What's on your bookcase?") and that I'm very glad to have for a couple of days now. I'm hoping to see results improve with practice sometime.

 

Guys with "the eye" like Rolo or also Azzo, just as examples are a hard act to follow.

 

Cheers, Chris!

Simon

 

Italians have made my name (and for example the one of the forum top guy) into something that in German ears sounds like a girl's name .

Because of liking to go to Italy for holidays for decades now since it is such a great country, I got used to it and we have Italian friends in Frankfurt also. But it's a constant reminder to keep one's cool at all times, specially since upsetting is not an intention. And also to calmly look well pass nuisances at nice things in life.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Guest

[delander †]

Crop or not? Interesting debate but lets keep it non-personal.

 

You can already go out and purchase a 60mp camera. Go and do a bit of street photography with it and I'm sure that out of any reasonable full image you will be able to crop out of it something interesting, that can be printed at A3+ size. And nobody will know, and everyone will say 'WOW great capture' when it is nothing of the sort.

 

As mp counts go up this seems to be where we are heading. The art of composition of the original image will be lost and nobody except a few seem to be the least bit concerned about it.

 

Jeff

[andybarton]

Why should we be concerned about it if it's what people want to do? What right does anyone have to say that you should never crop?

[bill]

It appears from this thread to be a question of Faith...

 

"Burn the cropping heretics!!"

 

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[danyves]

After having read several dozen books about HCB and even more articles and after visiting numerous HCB exhibitions, I cannot remember any single evidence that this shot was set up except your claim. In fact, there's a long essay from Peter Galassi of the MoMA about HCB's early works where he says that Gare St. Lazare and Cardinal Pacelli are the only shots that were cropped while the one from Mexico with the crossed arms and the shoes was the only one that was set up.

 

Besides, why would someone set up a shot and then photograph it through a whole in the wall?

 

Gare Saint Lazare and Cardinal Pacelli were not made with a Leica, but with a Krauss, hence were not initially 24x36, hence the cropping to have the same 2:3 ratio.

[SJP]

Maybe it would be worthwile to conclude that we have two types of photographers:

(1) the croppers

(2) the non-croppers

 

I am happy to be in category (1) but prefer not to crop as it saves time in PP, so nailing the frame is useful but not essential, and sometimes impossible. This means we also have the (3) "non-ideological non-cropper" (basically 1 + 2)

 

To throw some more fuel on the fire - how about exposure, contrast etc.? Surely it is desirable to set everything in the camera and then do absolutely nothing in post processing? Or is adjusting exposure after the event OK for the "non-cropper"?? If so then how about dodge and burn, sharpness enhancement, motion blur removal, color adjustmen etc etc.

 

Some of these were available in the dark room so I expect they are acceptable but cropping & rotating is standard darkroom MO as well surely?

[Guest mc_k]

...The art of composition of the original image will be lost and nobody except a few seem to be the least bit concerned about it.

 

...

 

I still don't understand why composition before the exposure is any different than composition afterwards...they both would seem to require the same skill set or gift. Is it the same in music or painting or dance--is something improvised always better than something that has been worked over multiple times? And what about pictures that result from a "study," or from adjoining two pictures--can't be art?

[delander †]

Perhaps I should just say that I find it much more difficult to compose correctly in camera than I do to crop afterwards at the computer. I therefore feel a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when I do this that I dont get otherwise.

 

After being actively involved in this thread for some time now I accept that I am in the minority.

 

Jeff

[wilfredo]

I can't believe this debate has gone on this long? I think we can safely conclude that some will always crop and some will never crop, and most will probably crop if in they see a need for it. This is a subjective issue and judgment should not be made on personal preferences.

 

So Crop or don't Crop - but please don't turn the "O" in CROP to an "A."

 

Enough said, be happy, "can't we all get along?" (Rodney King) LOL

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Edited May 9, 2010 by wilfredo

[nhabedi]

Gare Saint Lazare and Cardinal Pacelli were not made with a Leica, but with a Krauss, hence were not initially 24x36, hence the cropping to have the same 2:3 ratio.

 

No. Cardinal Pacelli was done with a different camera, but Gare St. Lazare was shot with a Leica. You can see the negative here:

 

Etherton Gallery | Celebrating the Negative:Photographs by John Loengard

 

Also, as I've mentioned already in this thread, an uncropped print can be found in the "Scrapbook".

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[Jeff S]

Perhaps I should just say that I find it much more difficult to compose correctly in camera than I do to crop afterwards at the computer. I therefore feel a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when I do this that I dont get otherwise.

 

One more time. Many, including myself, pre-visualize an image in the camera that just happens not to perfectly and precisely fill the frame, since the world is full of wonderful scenes that just don't happen to meet those dimensions. And many times there is a wider than ideal lens on the camera when a fast moving situation requires a shot, or the image is lost forever. Cropping...in the VF...in this way requires the same pre-visualization skills as you suggest.

 

Cropping after the fact is also no sin to me, but I don't do it randomly looking for an image. The seeing occurred when I pressed the shutter.

 

I search for great scenes everywhere, as do we all. If it fills the frame of view, great. If it doesn't, however, I'm sure as heck not going to ignore it. If I had my old view camera with me, and I was shooting a static scene, I'd make sure the edges of the frame were perfect on the ground glass. The Leica is quite a different tool...for me. But, the final print...and making it the best it can be...is the same.

 

Jeff S