michali Posted March 31, 2010 Share #1 Posted March 31, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Following on from the endless discussions regarding the M9 & Red Edge on super wides and the new FW1.116 update I ran some test shots. Today is the first clear day since I did the FW update, so a good opportunity to play a little. Mods. please indulge me with the attached pics, as they are relevant to this discussion. Note: No post processing whatsoever was applied other than conversion from DNG to JPEG. Judge for yourselves. 1.M9&12mm CV coded as 21mm 2.M9&12mm CV uncoded 3.M9&WATE @16mm 4.M9&WATE @18mm 5.M9&WATE @21mm 6.M9&24mm ELMARIT Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/116907-wide-samples-m9-red-edge-fw1116-whats-the-fuss/?do=findComment&comment=1279217'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Hi michali, Take a look here Wide Samples M9 & Red Edge FW1.116 what's the fuss?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wattsy Posted March 31, 2010 Share #2 Posted March 31, 2010 Maybe if you'd tried any of the lenses that seem to be worse afflicted - 15mm CV, 18mm SE and Zeiss 18mm, the 21/F2.8 ASPH - the experiment would have been a bit more interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 31, 2010 Share #3 Posted March 31, 2010 Still, it puts the problem into perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share #4 Posted March 31, 2010 Here's a shot I took last September with the M9 & previous FW & 12mm CV also coded as a 21mm. The difference is obvious. IMO Leica have gone a long way in rectifying the issue. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/116907-wide-samples-m9-red-edge-fw1116-whats-the-fuss/?do=findComment&comment=1279264'>More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted March 31, 2010 Share #5 Posted March 31, 2010 Well-lighted shots with strong blues in the corners also help to minimize the issue. Of natural scenes, I would only expect problems with underexposed snow or indoor white backgrounds. It has certainly reached a level where 99% of us (and you others know who you are!) can live with it. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 31, 2010 Share #6 Posted March 31, 2010 +1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 31, 2010 Share #7 Posted March 31, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Is the new firmware generally an improvement? Yes. The "fuss" lies in the fact that there is variablility among individual cameras and/or lenses - so while the new FW may improve one camera to the point the problem is essentially invisible, some cameras or camera/Leica lens combos still show significant color drift. If you care to swap cameras with me, I'll be in good shape. Otherwise.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share #8 Posted March 31, 2010 I get your point. However I've got 2 M9s, a Sept 09 vers. s/no. 3803XXX and a March 10 vers. s/no. 3838XXX both are updated with the latest FW. The results I'm seeing are identical on both cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 31, 2010 Share #9 Posted March 31, 2010 Is the new firmware generally an improvement? Yes. The "fuss" lies in the fact that there is variablility among individual cameras and/or lenses - so while the new FW may improve one camera to the point the problem is essentially invisible, some cameras or camera/Leica lens combos still show significant color drift. If you care to swap cameras with me, I'll be in good shape. Otherwise.... What would make cameras variable? Unlike lenses they are all made the same, so you don't get the quality control problems with CV lenses or the individual characteristic of the 21mm Asph, for instance. If it is so, that the M9 body is variable for red edge, why aren't people sending them back to have it corrected? Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 31, 2010 Share #10 Posted March 31, 2010 Mike's post suggests that any variability there may be is not in the bodies. And third-party lenses are certainly not Leica's responsibility. So that leaves just two lenses that may be problematic. Could we see any test shots of those under the new firmware in this thread to compare? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted March 31, 2010 Share #11 Posted March 31, 2010 The other limitation to the firmware solution is that Leica has to provide a standard solution. Older lenses may behave in a not-quite-standard way. Also the correction for different apertures and different color temperatures of the light may not be perfect with one standard spatial filter. For the really demanding, situation, photographer, or client, there is always cornerfix, but I don't expect to use it very often. The new firmware seems to minimize the exposure to these sorts of errors with tricks like slight excess green at the edges and reducing the vignetting corrections as ISO increases. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 31, 2010 Share #12 Posted March 31, 2010 ...Judge for yourselves. ... Thank you, Mike! This is really helpful for further judgements. Can you give details about the white balance settings in your examples? Were they all the same or are there differences? From my experience white balance besides avoiding underexposure plays a crucial role in the whole issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share #13 Posted March 31, 2010 Mike's post suggests that any variability there may be is not in the bodies. And third-party lenses are certainly not Leica's responsibility. So that leaves just two lenses that may be problematic. Could we see any test shots of those under the new firmware in this thread to compare? Jaap- You're spot on. I'm definitely seeing identical results (well almost) on both M9 bodies with my Leica lenses: WATE, 24mm Elmarit, 28mm & 35mm Summicron & 35mm Summilux. There's a slight difference between the 2 cameras with 12mm CV i.e. the red is slightly more noticeable on my older M9, but nothing really substantial. I also agree that 3rd party lenses are not Leica's concern or problem. It would be interesting to see samples from the other wide Leica lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share #14 Posted March 31, 2010 Thank you, Mike! This is really helpful for further judgements. Can you give details about the white balance settings in your examples? Were they all the same or are there differences? From my experience white balance besides avoiding underexposure plays a crucial role in the whole issue. Uli this was by no means a scientific experiment, however I set WB to 4500K for all the shots. I've never really had a red edge problem with the Leica wides, even with the previous FW. Strangely enough the biggest improvement I've seen is with the 12mm CV. I fully agree with you avoiding underexposure is probably one of the most critical factors in avoiding the red edges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 31, 2010 Share #15 Posted March 31, 2010 Mike's post suggests that any variability there may be is not in the bodies. And third-party lenses are certainly not Leica's responsibility. So that leaves just two lenses that may be problematic. Could we see any test shots of those under the new firmware in this thread to compare? No, Mikes post didn't say anything about variability in the bodies, so well spotted, but did introduce examples of CV lenses, so being polite its reasonable to include them in the further discussion isn't it? Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 31, 2010 Share #16 Posted March 31, 2010 As requested - first picture (hospital) taken with my production M9 and 21mm f/2.8 pre-ASPH (with Leica coding) FW 1.116 - substantial red edge discoloration. Second picture (shopping plaza) was taken with the identical lens on a demo camera last September (substantially less little red edge, even with the previous unfixed firmware). So 1) the same lens used on different cameras produces different amounts of red edge - thus cameras vary. And 2) FW 1.116 has not removed it completely. 250swb: as to why cameras might vary - imprecise location of the sensor on the circuit board, or the circuit board within the camera. Some slipup in the sensor production process that offsets the microlenses incorrectly. I'm not sure why cameras would be less vulnerable to slipups thatn individual lenses - they are alll assembled from parts. As to why mine hasn't been returned for repair or service - because it is in daily use. So I have been waiting for 6 months to see what improvements firmware would bring before taking that step. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/116907-wide-samples-m9-red-edge-fw1116-whats-the-fuss/?do=findComment&comment=1279786'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 31, 2010 Share #17 Posted March 31, 2010 Can you tell us if there is an exposure difference by the histograms, Andy? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 31, 2010 Share #18 Posted March 31, 2010 No, Mikes post didn't say anything about variability in the bodies, so well spotted, but did introduce examples of CV lenses, so being polite its reasonable to include them in the further discussion isn't it? Steve I don't quite see what this has to do with politeness. I think it is unlikely Leica has any influence over the construction of CV and Zeiss lenses, nor would they want to, and no obligation to build cameras to the specifications of competitors. And Mike did say he saw no difference between his two bodies... (post #8) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 31, 2010 Share #19 Posted March 31, 2010 I'd recommend not to draw any conclusions about bodies and/or lenses as long as different photos with different results for red edges don't show the same scenery, same lighting, same exposure and same white balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 31, 2010 Share #20 Posted March 31, 2010 I don't quite see what this has to do with politeness. I think it is unlikely Leica has any influence over the construction of CV and Zeiss lenses, nor would they want to, and no obligation to build cameras to the specifications of competitors. And Mike did say he saw no difference between his two bodies... (post #8) If examples of CV lenses are used in the discussion of red edge by the OP is it your remit to 'moderate' that discussion? Clearly CV lenses are of interest (and on a wider scale) without your censorship efforts. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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