Rick Posted April 5, 2010 Share #141 Posted April 5, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hey AlanG, this is a sincere question because I don't follow all of your posts. Do you own an M9? Also, I'm an amateur photographer (although, I'm a professional in my own mind ) so, check out my Venice photo's that I took last year with my M8. It will give you an idea what most peoples (one amateur's) travel photo's are like. This is not my "photo site." It was done for the people on our trip because we all promised to put our pictures up on Flickr. So, these are mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 Hi Rick, Take a look here Video mode on future M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted April 5, 2010 Share #142 Posted April 5, 2010 I feel a these came out pretty nice or were interesting. That being said, I welcome your criticism and advice on what I should do differently and if a better camera would help. Italy 2010 select An excellent set of photographs Alan! You have a few real killers in there, I love the 'hand on bum' shot its great end to the slide show. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmoniser Posted March 2, 2011 Share #143 Posted March 2, 2011 I don't know if this thread is considered dead, but anyway. I happen to be an old Leica M user AND a videographer. And I have been thinking about this issue for a while now. Here is my opinion on the Leica-M-video issue: Reality check, Leica! Why do you still exist? As a curiosity for old Leica snobs? You used to be the workhorse for reporters and art photographers as well, having a definite and important role in the photography landscape. How is it now? Well, you still have splendid lenses, and I love that M body. I also rejoiced when the M8 came, after everyone said it is impossible to make a digital M. You are still alive! That is amazing! But I know many are wondering why you are still alive. The competition is so hard today. Now, let's look at the changes in the photography landscape of the world. Important things are happening. And I think the most important thing is that a "camera" is now becoming an imaging device. Still images, moving images -- no limitations. You just choose the tool that does the job best for you, that is all. Who would today choose a Leica M then? The pro's? For what? Leica snobs? Sure. But how many are they? However, I can see a pro group that Leica M could very well target -- and maybe even very well so: The indie filmmaker; the video producer (or shall I say "image storyteller"). A rugged, compact camera with wonderful lenses such as the M could be a perfect creative tool for such a person. At least for me. Film makers work well with fixed lenses. I think a rangefinder would be great for videos. Easy to focus, lean, discrete. I would have it around my neck all the time. With full frame 1080 video in the M I would get quality beyond a 35 mm film camera. So I even think that a smart and maybe even natural strategy for the survival of the M would be to hit the pro videographer market. Remember that the M was made not to just be "pure" -- it was made as a perfect creative tool for important creative jobs. Now, today that creative job has changed. Leica M is not a religion that should just be preserved by purists "because it should". It should get back to work again. And I think this could very well be the way to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortega Posted March 3, 2011 Share #144 Posted March 3, 2011 I'm definitely with you Harmoniser. As a new M9 owner, I want to see what the next chip can do with video. The current M9 CCD apparently lacks the frame rate output ability (~2.5fps max) to ever reach the hopes of a video signal. While the next gen CCD's probably will still not have low light ability to match CMOS, it would still not have the rolling shutter issues! Maybe by resurrecting this thread we'll find the attitudes have shifted a little. The main reason I purchased a 5D mkII was to shoot video. I've done well with it, and have matched footage from that camera in with 35mm and RED ONE footage for broadcast and theatrical projection. Video capabilities on a FF digital camera are fantastic and part of the new vanguard. I would like Leica to embrace this. What difference would it make in the end for those who don't want it? Just don't use it. Why on earth would you want to lessen your potential abilities, and more importantly those of other users, if there is no sacrifice in still quality... which why would there be any? I feel Alan's pain trying to relate the benefits of being able to shoot FF with fixed lenses, and the quality, game changing footage that is possible from them. When you start personally discovering the quality you can get from a FF video signal, you'll want the functionality in the M10. Also, think of that Leica glass value shooting through the roof as they now function as cine taking lenses! Cash in your purses! Bottom line, video is here. It is part of cameras of the future. Embrace it, and learn to shoot it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 3, 2011 Share #145 Posted March 3, 2011 What difference would it make in the end for those who don't want it? Just don't use it. Why on earth would you want to lessen your potential abilities, and more importantly those of other users, if there is no sacrifice in still quality... which why would there be any? Let me explain this - again - "Why on Earth" should I have no choice and be forced to pay for functionality and complexity that I do not want and will never use? It is the height of arrogance to assume that we all want - and would be benefited by - bloatware "improvements" if only we woke up. I am mere than happy to see Leica produce some body in the future that can take video, but NOT as my only option. Bottom line, video is here. It is part of cameras of the future. Embrace it, and learn to shoot it. "Bottom line" - a few years ago pre-digital, the fad was panoramic. Every manufacturer brought out a camera that in some way cropped a 35mm negative to letterbox dimensions. It was a "me too" fad. I don't recall at that time Leica introducing an M6 with a panoramic mask function... They are, thank Dawkins, largely immune to the vagaries of photo fashion. Video has been here for a long time, yes, but so has herpes. I have no desire or motivation to "embrace" either. No. I will not "...learn to shoot it." Video does not float my boat, meet my needs or in any conceivable way provide me with a means of expression that interests me one jot or iota. This is my opinion, of course and you are welcome to differ, but please don't ever spend my money for me or tell me to "embrace" and "learn" something that I have already considered, discarded and do not want to see as a mandatory "enhancement" in the next M. Thank you. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 3, 2011 Share #146 Posted March 3, 2011 There really is no point trying to engage someone who responds like this in a serious dialog. Do other people tell you this very often?Since when can a pie-in-the-sky idea generate a serious dialog? The moment Leica puts video in an M camera is the day they can phone a bankrupcy lawyer - and they know it. Leica is a company that lives by its heritage, as expressed in the M series. The moment they forsake that heritage, they are just a small fish trying to compete in a sea full of killer whales. They would lose the European market, they would lose the Asian market. If Leica should want to bring out a video-capable camera, it cannot be an M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortega Posted March 3, 2011 Share #147 Posted March 3, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) You guys crack me up. It's just the internetz, relax. Oh, Bill don't take offense at my "commands"... they're just mere suggestions for finding more wisdom or art in the world. Discard all the fad tech you want, in the end it doesn't really cost you anything, that R&D money only went into my camera. The real funny bit here is you're not defending still film cameras here. We're already running around with 'video' sensors is in our digital cameras. They just haven't been built with processors to encode the data... yet. Based on this wisdom Jaapv, Leica should have called the bankruptcy lawyers the day they announced the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 3, 2011 Share #148 Posted March 3, 2011 Nortega, this really has nothing to do with film. Strange as it may seem, I have shot digital for years, and I am well aware of the state of the technology. I even have - horrors! - a digital video camera, which I have used extensively - but not in any way that either enthused me or impressed me. This thread is all about bloating a future M with a video function. My point, and those of others, is that the M occupies a unique and successful niche. "me-too", crowd-pleasing functional convergence is not in and of itself a desirable thing. Functioal specalisation works for the Leica M product line, because it gives people a precision tool that does "exactly what it says on the tin", no more and no less. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 3, 2011 Share #149 Posted March 3, 2011 You guys crack me up. It's just the internetz, relax. Oh, Bill don't take offense at my "commands"... they're just mere suggestions for finding more wisdom or art in the world. Discard all the fad tech you want, in the end it doesn't really cost you anything, that R&D money only went into my camera. The real funny bit here is you're not defending still film cameras here. We're already running around with 'video' sensors is in our digital cameras. They just haven't been built with processors to encode the data... yet. Based on this wisdom Jaapv, Leica should have called the bankruptcy lawyers the day they announced the M8. Every once in a while an armchair CEO/garden shed camera designer comes along on this forum, and without any hindrance of knowledge of the concept, target customer base and niche marketing of Leica tries to trumpet the latest and greatest gimmick that brought Canon/Nikon/Sony/etc * (*tick as appropriate) marvellous success. It never worked, will not work. Fortunately Leica's management is wiser. So they don't call bankrupcy lawyers, they simply build the most successful M since the M3 and write the best company results Leica ever had.... Btw, it is highly dounbtful that we are running around with an M9 that is potentially video-capable. The ff CCD in this camera runs into cooling problems when swicthed on for more than a few minutes - and any other type of sensor is at the present unsuitable for geometric reasons (incidence angle vs acceptance angle) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortega Posted March 3, 2011 Share #150 Posted March 3, 2011 and it appears with great constancy Jaapv seeks to stifle any thought of progression. Let's be clear about one very important distinction: The quality of 24x36 FF video is not a "gimmick"... thinking of it that way is highly short sided. While it's abundantly clear that many don't want this functionality, I'll continue to chime in that there are many pros that do. You realize it would look amazing right? Have you ever shot with a 5D and cine glass mounted to it? Or anamorphic lenses? It is insanely good IQ and for the price it is a complete game changer. Drawing the analogy of digital vs analogue is a great way to parallel the kicking and screaming this topic has. I'm sure you considered digital imaging a gimmick in it's infancy... and it was, compared to film's IQ two decades ago. Time and tech change, as do what consumers desire. If you think video is the signal of the end of Leica, and it should stalwartly refuse to include functionally that is a minimal amount of R&D away from where they are now with digital imaging (at the rebirth of their sales numbers)... well, let's hope your armchair is more reclined than mine. My desires are for single imaging platform that allows me choices in the field. I like the form factor & control of a M body and as a result carry it and shoot it more than my SLR cameras. That's why I got an M9. I would love, however, should the right moment be there, to switch over and take motion in through my superb Leica glass. Why this is heresy is beyond me. It's 2011 right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted March 3, 2011 Share #151 Posted March 3, 2011 The quality of 24 × 36 FF video is not a "gimmick" No-one said or implied the quality of 24 × 36 mm HD video was a gimmick. Instead, video on a rangefinder camera is a gimmick. And I—just like Jaap—would prefer not to see a Leica M camera with that feature. What I'd like to see, however, was a Leica M camera with live view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 3, 2011 Share #152 Posted March 3, 2011 "Bottom line" - a few years ago pre-digital, the fad was panoramic. Every manufacturer brought out a camera that in some way cropped a 35mm negative to letterbox dimensions. It was a "me too" fad. I don't recall at that time Leica introducing an M6 with a panoramic mask function... Bill, you're forgetting the Leica C11, APS camera with panoramic option Leica APS Variations But I agree, the idea of video on an M is wrong. Apart from sensor issues, would many videographers choose a manual focus rangefinder camera in preference to say a Canon 5D, let alone a 'proper' video camera? Also, re. the comment above, Leica do already make cine camera lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted March 3, 2011 Share #153 Posted March 3, 2011 If an awkward to use, Leica M lens compatible, manual focus video camera is what you want, I'd suggest this. and this. You can have it tomorrow. Put me down for not bloating the next version of the camera either...maybe do it to the S3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aesop Posted March 3, 2011 Share #154 Posted March 3, 2011 and it appears with great constancy Jaapv seeks to stifle any thought of progression. Let's be clear about one very important distinction: The quality of 24x36 FF video is not a "gimmick"... thinking of it that way is highly short sided. While it's abundantly clear that many don't want this functionality, I'll continue to chime in that there are many pros that do. You realize it would look amazing right? Have you ever shot with a 5D and cine glass mounted to it? Or anamorphic lenses? It is insanely good IQ and for the price it is a complete game changer. Drawing the analogy of digital vs analogue is a great way to parallel the kicking and screaming this topic has. I'm sure you considered digital imaging a gimmick in it's infancy... and it was, compared to film's IQ two decades ago. Time and tech change, as do what consumers desire. If you think video is the signal of the end of Leica, and it should stalwartly refuse to include functionally that is a minimal amount of R&D away from where they are now with digital imaging (at the rebirth of their sales numbers)... well, let's hope your armchair is more reclined than mine. My desires are for single imaging platform that allows me choices in the field. I like the form factor & control of a M body and as a result carry it and shoot it more than my SLR cameras. That's why I got an M9. I would love, however, should the right moment be there, to switch over and take motion in through my superb Leica glass. Why this is heresy is beyond me. It's 2011 right? ...get a decent video-camera, Nortega. There is a simple reason why a *small* company like Leica becomes very good at what it does - it is called focus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 3, 2011 Share #155 Posted March 3, 2011 Put me down for not bloating the next version of the camera either...maybe do it to the S3. Now that is an excellent suggestion... Leica glass, an appropriate form-factor, yes, I can see the sense in that. Better to gild a lily, than make a sow's ear out of a silk purse... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 3, 2011 Share #156 Posted March 3, 2011 and it appears with great constancy Jaapv seeks to stifle any thought of progression. Let's be clear about one very important distinction: The quality of 24x36 FF video is not a "gimmick"... thinking of it that way is highly short sided. While it's abundantly clear that many don't want this functionality, I'll continue to chime in that there are many pros that do. You realize it would look amazing right? Have you ever shot with a 5D and cine glass mounted to it? Or anamorphic lenses? It is insanely good IQ and for the price it is a complete game changer. Drawing the analogy of digital vs analogue is a great way to parallel the kicking and screaming this topic has. I'm sure you considered digital imaging a gimmick in it's infancy... and it was, compared to film's IQ two decades ago. Time and tech change, as do what consumers desire. If you think video is the signal of the end of Leica, and it should stalwartly refuse to include functionally that is a minimal amount of R&D away from where they are now with digital imaging (at the rebirth of their sales numbers)... well, let's hope your armchair is more reclined than mine. My desires are for single imaging platform that allows me choices in the field. I like the form factor & control of a M body and as a result carry it and shoot it more than my SLR cameras. That's why I got an M9. I would love, however, should the right moment be there, to switch over and take motion in through my superb Leica glass. Why this is heresy is beyond me. It's 2011 right? Sir, you are either a shill or a fool imo. Take your pick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 3, 2011 Share #157 Posted March 3, 2011 " I would love, however, should the right moment be there, to switch over and take motion in through my superb Leica glass." How does this relate to the "pros" you are so certain want video in a Leica M? Pro grade video requires a lot more than a big sensor and nice glass. Good sound equipment, for a start. A tripod as well - or a good (but bulky) shoulder brace or SteadiCam. There are pros using the Canon 5D and other Canons, but they don't just "switch over, should the right moment be there." They plan and script and go fully prepared (which does not mean using the camera and lens they happen to have over their shoulder). About like this: YouTube - How to Make a TV Commercial - Canon 7D - Documentary Video Production Note the use of a clapper board - because the sound quality of SLRs is so bad that pros record their sound separately on something better and sync it up in post-production. If you just want to shoot grab-ass weenie video - use your cell-phone. It'll give you just as good results as a video-Leica without the proper backup gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
!Nomad64 Posted March 3, 2011 Share #158 Posted March 3, 2011 May I know why everyone wants to turn a photo-camera into a video camera? Ergonomics suggest it would be quite a discomfort to maneuver such a device. If photo-cameras are shaped differently than video-cameras there must be some reason after all... and I instinctively distrust all-in-one devices as in the best option they end being jacks of all trades and masters of none. So far Leica is still a camera maker extraordinnaire and their M series are master tools. I see no point in them turning into sloppy video camera makers. But that's just me. Cheers, Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 3, 2011 Share #159 Posted March 3, 2011 May I know why everyone wants to turn a photo-camera into a video camera? Everyone doesn't... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted March 3, 2011 Share #160 Posted March 3, 2011 Pro grade video requires a lot more than a big sensor and nice glass. Good sound equipment, for a start. A tripod as well - or a good (but bulky) shoulder brace or SteadiCam. There are pros using the Canon 5D and other Canons, but they don't just "switch over, should the right moment be there." They plan and script and go fully prepared (which does not mean using the camera and lens they happen to have over their shoulder). Just because you can shoot video with a DSLR doesn't mean you should. Unless you mic your subjects properly, your sound's going to blow, and unless you find a way to steady that beast, hand holding anything shot longer than 35mm, full frame, is going to be down right unwatchable on any sized screen. As a professional wedding photographer, I know the trend is now to just throw in a little video, because the camera has the ability do it. I'm not a fan of it, and I don't buy it, and I don't do it. Stills and video are 2 separate disciplines. I can start shooting D3s video at ANY time, but not while I'm trying to concentrate on being a still photographer. If I do start recording with the D3s, it's not going to be great video because I don't possess or want to possess all of those accessories (or SKILL) to make it great. Therefore I choose to do what I know I'm good at doing. Good video, or "film-making" takes preparation, skill, and talent and years of experience. It's not something that should just be done willy nilly with a tool that isn't really balanced properly for the job. When you shoot video as an afterthought, it ends up LOOKING like video shot as an afterthought. Just my opinion, but on an M9 or M10, it just seems stupider. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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