Leica market positioning now and the future

[Guest BigSplash]

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The recent Herr Spiller interview has prompted me to think why I have bought so much M leica gear.

I am not a collector per se but have a M4,5,6 and now M8 and a bunch of lenses. I did not buy this kit for bragging rights...actually most of my friends think I am nuts to buy a rangefinder camera (out of date technology they say) and if they knew the price ...well, I would lose any credibility that I have left. I am frequently asked why I do not buy a Nikon or Canon DSLR and stop using my post war camera (M8!!). I bought into the M system for the following reasons and see that as Leica's true market segment:

• Superb M lenses in terms of IQ (detail, colour, contrast, lack of distortion)..However the results Canon & Nikon users get these days is pretty good I think.
  
• High Speed lenses ( I have a Noctilux, a 75mm Lux, and my 35, 50, 90mm are all Summicrons) I am aware that Canon and Nikon are now making high speed lenses but I am told on this forum that they are not as good at full aperture because Leica manually adjust each lens to an incredible accuracy. I ask is that really true?
  
• Joy of pressing the shutter and hearing a simple click...not a camera shaking itself and the user apart as mirrors etc do their thing.
  
• My SMALL and light camera bag houses a M8 with Tri Elmar (MATE) fitted, and a 21mm, 75mm, 90mm to keep it company. It is a delight to take on a day out, or when travelling internationally.
  
• The M camera with lens fitted is not intimidating to children and other subjects, plus it is unobtrusive for taking people unawares.
  

I think those are my reasons for choosing M and it centres around photography, not being a collector, nor a technology nut (which I am), nor price nor bragging rights.

 

I would like to know if there is any other camera with lenses that can match the above, or bluntly put does Leica have any competition at all in the segment as per above?

 

If I bought a M9 (£5000) and compared this to a (£2500) Full Frame Canon 5DII (for example) :

• Could I achieve the same quality of image with the usual zoom lens, or would I need a set of prime focus lenses?
  
• Is it simply impossible to get the same image with Canon / Nikon lenses as with a Leica? I am intrigued.
  
• Many here suggest Leica somehow has a special IQ and I actually think that there maybe some truth in that but then how can the pros accept the IQ of Canon / Nikon?
  

It seems to me that Leica has built its market share to 95% of the high end rangefinder segment so maybe they cannot gain more share. That said many people presumably have the same care abouts as me and presumably they choose other cameras .....so why do Leica not manage to sell far more than the 12000 units per year for M cameras year after year? What is the barrier?

 

I ask the question and hope people will reply with their views. I shall listen and I personally plan NOT to enter this debate as I do not wish to be attacked for asking what some may see as a provocative question. I look forward to hearing what people think

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[jaapv]

Crikey- Frank, this gets repetitive. Yawn....

[earleygallery]

...and Herr Spiller was flamed for suggesting that Leica appeal to people more interested in technicalities!

 

Frank, to be frank, I couldn't give a toss about any of the above points. I like to make photographs. I use Leica and other cameras, depending on what I'm shooting or where I'm going.

 

Choose your camera, take your photos. Why obsess about market share, profits, business plans etc.

[jaapv]

Yes - and it turned out the translation of the Spiller interview twisted his words out of context too - so the whole hoohah was based on quioksand - in which Frank is still struggling it seems. And a filter is cheaper on e- bay. Hurray! so what is new....

[andybarton]

You don't want to follow up on a provocative question? Why? This is beginning to get repetitive and dull.

 

This is getting ridiculous, Frank. Your continuing ownership of your Leica gear is clearly bringing you nothing but angst and unhappiness. This cannot be good for your health.

 

In all seriousness, I think that you should just stop worrying about stuffcompletely put of your control and get on with your own life and taking photographs.

 

If you are THAT serious about rebuilding Leica as a company, go and buy out Dr Kaufmann and get on with it and stop whinging on here.

[marknorton]

Wondered whether to reply to this thread and so bounce it to the top or else let it sink into oblivion...

 

Frank, the attitude of your friends highlights Leica's problem - attracting new people into M photography when what floats their boat is face recognition and built-in HD video. You "get" the M (or so it seems), your friends don't. If Leica were to vastly increase their production and so achieve the economies of scale of a Canikon factory churning out more cameras in a day than they do in a month, they'd find the market became quickly saturated. Your friends may ridicule you for the price you pay but they still wouldn't be interested at half the price.

 

Instead, Leica limit their production so that their resources are (more or less) fully utilised over the long term which keeps them in business. That may annoy some waiting for their M9 but throttling supply keeps demand up for what they can make. Look what happened when they tried to unload the unloved Digilux 3 onto a sceptical market.

 

It's not just Leica, have you tried to order that 458 Italia you've been promising yourself?

[SJP]

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As we have a promise of no futher contributions by Frank

 

Could I achieve the same quality of image with the usual zoom lens, or would I need a set of prime focus lenses? No, yes

Is it simply impossible to get the same image with Canon / Nikon lenses as with a Leica? I am intrigued. In rough terms no, not impossible, but CMOS looks better than CCD IMHO, main reason for me not to consider the X1

Many here suggest Leica somehow has a special IQ and I actually think that there maybe some truth in that but then how can the pros accept the IQ of Canon / Nikon? It does have special IQ, and some pro's use Leica for that reason, or for ergonomic reasons (or both), DSLR's are more versatile for a wide range of stuff & considerably cheaper, so choices are obvious

So you made the right choice, no need to defend yourself to those that do not understand. Likewise as we have just found out from hr. Spiller Leica's are bought by a special breed of wealthy and long-suffering techno collector geeks(). Leica has always been at least 2-4x more expensive than the rest & often less reliable. This is inevitable due to the manual construction & small series. All of this explains the limited turnover in numbers.

[cidereye]

....... I like to make photographs. I use Leica and other cameras, depending on what I'm shooting or where I'm going.

 

Choose your camera, take your photos. Why obsess about market share, profits, business plans etc.

 

What !?!?! You mean go out and take photographs?!?

 

Don't know about that, is it such a wise thing to do with your photographic gear?

 

On a serious note though, couldn't agree more. They are all just merely tools whoever makes them after all.

[redbaron]

Sell it all and buy a Hasselblad. Please.

[alun]

Better yet, sell it all and buy Leica shares and then you can forget photography and focus on voting to determine the company's future strategic direction etc etc...

[giordano]

Looking at it another way:

 

• Many here suggest Leica somehow has a special IQ and I actually think that there maybe some truth in that but then how can the pros accept the IQ of Canon / Nikon?

Frank has already admitted knowing nothing about modern branding or consumer goods manufacture. The above quote suggests that he also doesn't understand how to make an investment decision.

 

What matters to most pros is that Nikon or Canon pro and semi-pro gear delivers IQ that is plenty good enough for what they need to do, at about half the price of a Leica. Simple as that.

[earleygallery]

What !?!?! You mean go out and take photographs?!?

 

Don't know about that, is it such a wise thing to do with your photographic gear?

 

On a serious note though, couldn't agree more. They are all just merely tools whoever makes them after all.

 

Indeed! I do take photos but not enough recently. I was at a meeting in London this afternoon and managed to use up the last few frames of film in the Fuji compact camera I had kept in my document bag (I bought it for a quid at a boot fair recently, it's got a standard 24mm lens so was a little interesting, and photos on flickr from the same camera look to be very good).

 

These are photos I didn't go out to take just stuff that caught my eye and I happened to have a camera on me at the time. It's a bit of fun, if I end up with anything good that's a bonus.

 

Now, where can I find the Fuji balance sheet and product roadmap...........

[andybarton]

James

 

Isn't that what's "it's" all about? Getting out and taking photographs? Not sitting behind a keyboard and fretting about stuff?

 

I think so. There's too much navel gazing (other people's navels to boot...) and not enough photography in certain quarters, IMHO.

[tdtaylor]

Better yet, sell it all and buy Leica shares and then you can forget photography and focus on voting to determine the company's future strategic direction etc etc...

 

Best idea so far. Can't say I fret over Nikon's financial and marketing activities, so why should I start worrying about Leica. And if they go out of business, there will still be service centers, and my cameras will still take great photo, if God continues to grant me a once of skill.

 

Is this a case of the new and improved makes the current offerings (former new and improved) suddenly old and crummy?

[cidereye]

 

These are photos I didn't go out to take just stuff that caught my eye and I happened to have a camera on me at the time. It's a bit of fun, if I end up with anything good that's a bonus.

 

Yeah, that's a good attitude to take really. I usually have my pocket Ricoh GX200 on me and can guarantee when I don't I'll see a photo opportunity and regret not putting the camera in my pocket - especially at night, that's the one time I think it's not worth taking with me when it so very often is or was. I must learn from that.

[luigi bertolotti]

YAWN... but maybe can be the last... before e new nickname appears...

 

I would like to know if there is any other camera with lenses that can match the above, or bluntly put does Leica have any competition at all in the segment as per above? Do you see any competition in Digital Rangefinders ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I bought a M9 (£5000) and compared this to a (£2500) Full Frame Canon 5DII (for example) :

• Could I achieve the same quality of image with the usual zoom lens, or would I need a set of prime focus lenses? I think NO... but always thought that if one decides to use a SLR, is a pity not to have zooms... one cannot like them, but is clear that zooming is a significant capabilty inherent of SLRs (btw, I never had one, apart a collectible Contarex - no zooms...). You quote Canon...some recent thread shows that Canon, decades ago, could build primes (for RF cameras) that are excellent also today... I do not think they make them worst presently.
  
• Is it simply impossible to get the same image with Canon / Nikon lenses as with a Leica? I am intrigued.Personally, I think it's at all possible...strictly and logically speaking, this is an impossible assertion to demonstrate true or false... thousands of combinations and infinity of possible images to compare... so I say that surely is possible to take 2 photos (Leica & C or N) and conclude that they are "the same image"
  
• Many here suggest Leica somehow has a special IQ and I actually think that there maybe some truth in that but then how can the pros accept the IQ of Canon / Nikon? Clearly for they think that Canon/Nikon do have an IQ good for their job, be it "special" or not.
  

.....so why do Leica not manage to sell far more than the 12000 units per year for M cameras year after year? What is the barrier? I am SURE that they would like... (incredible... a manufacturer that would like to sell MORE of what he builds... )

I do not work for them, do not know their marketing, do not pretend to be an advisor for them : my simple opinion is that RF market is anyway a narrow one, so is the market for Digital Medium Format... as a small Company, not wrong that they prefer to target small markets... many companies do this and live well this way.