ho_co Posted March 21, 2010 Author Share #41 Posted March 21, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Luigi et al-- I think the Google translation is generally surprisingly good, but a couple alternative readings from Mr Spiller's second category of Leica customer might be better: Google "tech-savvy" technikbegeistert literally = ‘technology-excited’ or ‘technology-ardent’; i.e., someone who gets excited by technology itself, maybe a "tech nerd" or a "technology fan" Google "most significant" höchstwertig could also be translated as "highest-value" Just my own attempts; native speakers may have better suggestions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Hi ho_co, Take a look here Spiller interview in Welt Online. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
adan Posted March 21, 2010 Share #42 Posted March 21, 2010 "Am I right to say many of us don't find ourselves in Mr Spiller's list?" Probably - but the one thing I've learned about marketing is to never assume that I myself am the market. One of the things that put newspapers (and other media) in the US behind the 8-ball is that for years the editors and reporters assumed that what was news, and what people wanted to read, were the things THEY (the editors and reporters) thought was news, and what THEY wanted to read. Rudy Spiller may be making that same mistake - or he may have some real research numbers that show Leica is selling, or can sell, eight cameras to collectors and status-seekers for every two that are sold to serious photographers. In which case he knows which side his market is buttered on. I doubt anyone posting on this forum has the slightest idea what Leica's worldwide market really looks like. Even the gentleman running the global M9 map (not that he claims his registry is scientific). No M9s reported sold anywhere south of the US/Mexico border? One in Hollywood? None in the Arabian Peninsula? 10 throughout Asia (not counting AnZac) - when Asia is now 30% of Leica's market? Being generous, there are barely 400 cameras on that map, and being conservative, there are probably about 4000 M9s delivered so far. If Hr. Spiller is describing the 90% of the market that happens to not be the LUF - is he wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 21, 2010 Share #43 Posted March 21, 2010 It has been said many times before that this forum is not a representative sample if Leica owners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 21, 2010 Share #44 Posted March 21, 2010 Even if Mr. Spiller believes those three categories represent his customer base, IMHO he would have been much better keeping his trap shut. How do you think he feels he has advanced the Leica cause and market by this interview? Not a lot is my view. Now Stephen Lee may not have been taking the company in the right direction but when he was interviewed, you always felt he was an enthusiast and on the customers' side. A number of native German speakers have given us more detailed translations and the nuances of the various phrases Spiller used and that makes matters worse not better. The impression I get, is that we are all just "customer fodder" to be milked, if you will excuse the mixed metaphors. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted March 21, 2010 Share #45 Posted March 21, 2010 As a native German speaker, the interview made me frown, the wording appeared a tad insensitive to me. I found the Leica users, I met in person, to be enthusiastic photographers, having their main focus on the final picture rather than technology, prestige or collector's value. But then, I know most of them over this forum and in the end Mr. Spiller might be even right describing the main markets for the M9 at the moment. Considering this, there could be a benefit to everyone, a year ago, the survival of Leica was uncertain. At the moment, the company is improving, the market is flooded with new equipment, giving at least the M system a future for the next years and making this equipment available to a larger group of photographers as second hand equipment, when their technological or prestigious value has worn off to their first owners. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StS Posted March 21, 2010 Share #46 Posted March 21, 2010 (...)I did not get the impression from the Spiller interview that he was driving the company forward in new exciting directions and going after new high growth revenue streams. I hope he surprises us at Photokina but I fear the worst. I actually now expect M10 a la carte with a choice of leather colours as the new initiative. I'm not completely convinced, whether it is wise to announce the next innovation half a year in advance, when one has competitors with a tenfold R&D department... Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted March 21, 2010 Share #47 Posted March 21, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wilson, I agree with you. As a native German speaker and interested in actually taken pictures with Leica cameras I find Mr. Spiller's interview frankly missed the mark by mentioning the photographic aspects almost last. Mr Spiller seemed to be emphasizing collectors and show offs. Howard, I would translate Leidensfähigkeit with ability or capacity for suffering, technikbegeisterte Kunden as technology enthused customers, i.e. customers that are excited/enthusiastic about technology, and höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat as highest-value camera with a digital FF sensor. The end of the interview is pretty funny. According to Mr Spiller customers' expectations aren't just to take pictures but also to share photos and memories with others. When challenged with a reference to flickr, he philosophizes about more intelligent methods than picture albums for safe keeping and how to find certain pictures. He closes by pointing out that in this way Leica is putting even more emphasis on their customers. Regards, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted March 21, 2010 Share #48 Posted March 21, 2010 Even if Mr. Spiller believes those three categories represent his customer base, IMHO he would have been much better keeping his trap shut. How do you think he feels he has advanced the Leica cause and market by this interview? Not a lot is my view. Now Stephen Lee may not have been taking the company in the right direction but when he was interviewed, you always felt he was an enthusiast and on the customers' side. A number of native German speakers have given us more detailed translations and the nuances of the various phrases Spiller used and that makes matters worse not better. The impression I get, is that we are all just "customer fodder" to be milked, if you will excuse the mixed metaphors. Wilson Wilson, I fully agree with what you say. Yesterday, when I saw the interview, I sent a personal email to Rudolf Spiller, quoting his own words, to point out my disappointement. I haven't got an answer yet. What makes me feel really inconfortable (and somehow insulted) it's not the fact I don't belong to any group he has described but, as you say, 'we are all just "customer fodder" to be milked'. I find perticulary insulting when Herr Rudolf Spiller says: „Es gibt technikbegeisterte Kunden, die eine höchstwertige Kamera mit einem digitalen Sensor im Vollformat suchen". (There are tech-savvy customers who seek a most significant camera with a digital sensor in the full format) and says at the same time: „Die Leidensfähigkeit unserer Kunden ist hoch". (The endurance of our customers is high). He just take us as masochists who want the best quality and ready to put the price for that high quality but... who accept all the bugs, issues, late FW releases, sensor cracking, shutter failures... Where is the quaity he's talking about!?... Leica has replaced three of my M8s and my „höchstwertige Kameras" need regular visits to Solms' Leica Krankenhaus (Leica Hospital)... Leica needs a competitor. . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 21, 2010 Share #49 Posted March 21, 2010 ...Spiller is describing the 90% of the market that happens to not be the LUF - is he wrong? He's stating the obvious IMO. Most Leica users around me don't know what is a raw file but are good doctors, lawyers or politicians otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 21, 2010 Share #50 Posted March 21, 2010 Leica has replaced three of my M8s and my „höchstwertige Kameras" need regular visits to Solms' Leica Krankenhaus (Leica Hospital)... Leica needs a competitor. . . I know it will not happen, but a japanese Zeiss Ikon Digital would set a standard of quality and reliability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted March 21, 2010 Share #51 Posted March 21, 2010 Better to remain silent and appear a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Abraham Lincoln Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 21, 2010 Share #52 Posted March 21, 2010 So much denial going on. This forum is full of buyers in categories B (techno-nerds) and C ("Oh how knowing and sophisticated I must be with my Leica round my neck"). That many also take photographs is pretty much by the by. Spiller's comments are, frankly, a breath of fresh air - a bit of a Gerald Ratner moment for Leica (though one which I doubt will have any far reaching consequences). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 21, 2010 Share #53 Posted March 21, 2010 I know it will not happen, but a japanese Zeiss Ikon Digital would set a standard of quality and reliability. Made by Cosina you mean? My Epsons are partly made by Cosina as well but as much as i like them they are hardly better made than their Leica counterparts from quality point of view. They still work after 5 years' use though but i don't expect them to last forever. Leica will launch an M to my likings before they fall apart hopefully. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #54 Posted March 21, 2010 Even if Mr. Spiller believes those three categories represent his customer base, IMHO he would have been much better keeping his trap shut. How do you think he feels he has advanced the Leica cause and market by this interview? Not a lot is my view. Now Stephen Lee may not have been taking the company in the right direction but when he was interviewed, you always felt he was an enthusiast and on the customers' side. A number of native German speakers have given us more detailed translations and the nuances of the various phrases Spiller used and that makes matters worse not better. The impression I get, is that we are all just "customer fodder" to be milked, if you will excuse the mixed metaphors. Wilson Wilson you are 100% correct. He has NOT advanced the Leica cause, nor stimulated interest towards the new segments that Leica is trying to enter...X1, S2, Pradovit or widening the appeal to new M9 clients. He essentially spoke without passion and I for one feel pretty stupid buying Leica so that I can be milked...hell I dont think I fit any of the categories. I saw no enthusiasm in the interview or vision that he as CEO is driving towards....actually I felt much the same at the 09/09/09 event where he looked uncomfortable. I hope it is just presentation style, and maybe he needs help in meeting the press. Surely his preparation should be along the lines of "these are the key messages (bullets) that I must get across, irrespective of the questions asked" If he actually did this then IMHO he or his team have badly picked the messages.. I suspect he just gave an interview without planning what to say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #55 Posted March 21, 2010 I'm not completely convinced, whether it is wise to announce the next innovation half a year in advance, when one has competitors with a tenfold R&D department...Stefan Stefan if we are talking INNOVATION you are correct. However I would expect product EVOLOUTION to be something he could elude to as it would show commitment to the M line etc. I would have expected him to get passionate about: S2 ...well accepted by those who have used it and received the product. This is encouraging Leica to widen the portfolio of lenses and accessories etc etc. We have impressed Hasselblad and Phase one devotees and have had feedback that shall be used to improve the S2. M9 big success, but there is a need to make many more per day while improving quality..and lowering the cost / price. X1, Pradovit...... Instead he says that they sell to rich snobs and they are working weekends, misjudged the market by 40% and have supplier problems. Unbelievable! Having competitors with 10X R&D is not relevant in my view. Those competitors spread that budget over many camera models, and they do not have the IPR built over years that Leica has in their niche. As an example BMW budget is many times that of Range Rover but they bought into that company to learn how to build 4X4 off road cars as they had the expertise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #56 Posted March 21, 2010 please explain how you can make a Leica lens, without all the hand checked and manual input. It's just not possible. If you want Leica to make CV type lenses, then that's possible. If you want to destroy the only USP that Leica have, then go ahead with your plan. Despite your protestations with regards to your long term Leica ownership, I really don't think you understand the DNA of what makes the brand special and different. What makes them different is not turning out thousands of £200 lenses. Is a CV lens a Voigtlander or what and therefore not very good? Leica seem to make volumes of lenses for Panasonic are these of poor quality and hand built in Solms? Are you really saying that it is not possible to build high quality lenses without needing a heavy cost for hand finishing, hand testing, hand callibration...how does Canon do it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #57 Posted March 21, 2010 It's because much of what they produce is high volume, low margin goods. Leica will never be a high volume manufacturer - no matter how much you'd like them to be. Taking hifi as an example, a company like Marantz makes it profit from relatively low priced equipment. However, they also have a range of hand made equipment that it sold in much smaller volumes and at much higher prices. For example this £5,000 Blu-ray player... Marantz UD9004 Universal High Definition Blu-Ray Player Steve your example is a good one and reinforces my point. Why would Leica not want to do like Marantz and make its profit from relatively low priced equipment (compared to the £5000 Blu Rayer Player)...Leica already has the expensive "high end" item and the patents that protect it. It is busily scratching a living, and losing money each quarter this year hand building high end stuff in low volumes. Is that really a sustainable future ...apparently Herr Spiller sees it that way. The idea to go for a low entry cost item for me is obvious I would have thought. The challenge is how to actually make the thing in volume like Japanese manufacturers do. Japanese and German labour rates are not that dissimilar....the unit cost is very much a function of the cost of capital (cheaper in Japan), usage of automated machines and volumes committed at suppliers. The Leica brand needs to drift towards a tiered offering IMHO along the lines of: "low entry plastic M", with Summarit lenses M10 ...the high end Rolls Royce with the expensive lenses S2 for the professional Pradovit for Jappv as he is willing to pay 3X InFocus price Sports Optics Maybe some Panasonic Leica badged items I have no idea where the X1 fits in Leica's startegy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #58 Posted March 21, 2010 I decided for myself to forget about this interview and interpret it for as good as possible. But I wish that Dr. Kaufmann put Spiller straight on that there is more required by a CEO than grabbing the cheque at the end of the month. He should request him to show the same dedication to his job as the regular Leica staff is doing. I hope he gets someone to correct the proofs when he is writing the LUF book foreword. I would not like to be called a retard or similar. Regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 21, 2010 Share #59 Posted March 21, 2010 Is a CV lens a Voigtlander or what and therefore not very good? Leica seem to make volumes of lenses for Panasonic are these of poor quality and hand built in Solms? Are you really saying that it is not possible to build high quality lenses without needing a heavy cost for hand finishing, hand testing, hand callibration...how does Canon do it? You really are not this out of touch, are you...? Honestly?? If nothing else you manage to provide a continual source of amazement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted March 21, 2010 Share #60 Posted March 21, 2010 Bill, luckily Spiller is not Frank which would make it worse. Regards Steve PS: Frank, not to be meant offensive. But I could image that you would have the drive and power to wrack the company in a very short period of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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