euston Posted March 18, 2010 Share #81 Posted March 18, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) I did my own rough and ready test of my Elmarit 28mm asph along the lines suggested by lars_bergquist. There is a marked improvement but I do detect some slight residual red contamination right in the very corner of the image. I would have to wait for next winter’s snow to get genuine before and after shots but by that time I doubt very much that I’ll be concerned enough to bother. I never noticed the issue before I took my snow shots. Now that there has been an improvement, it isn't going to be much of a problem for me in practice, bearing in mind also how easy it is to correct with or without Cornerfix. Naturally, I sympathise with those for whom this issue remains mission-critical but, for me at least, that is not the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Hi euston, Take a look here A Sane Attitude to Rededge. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Maximus Posted March 18, 2010 Share #82 Posted March 18, 2010 chris and Max--At the top, Lars presented a couple suggestions for seeing a bit of sanity in the red-edge matter. You've made clear how you feel. Personally, I don't find it necessary for you to keep repeating yourselves. If you just want to complain about the operation of the new firmware, why not start a new thread on the topic? Howard. The repetition is on both sides. It's just debate and it's what forums exist for. I certainly have no axe to grind and as I have said several times, I love my M9. This forum is one of the best run and has the most polite user base I have ever experienced. Thank goodness we can all express ourselves without falling out with each other Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted March 18, 2010 Share #83 Posted March 18, 2010 The very suggestion that there might be a "sane attitude to Rededge" seems to have been red meat to a few who are never satisfied. I mentioned that the 21-lux didn't get singled out for corrections in the new firmware release because it is "red-edge free" and was questioned because others have claimed that there are problems with this lens. I did check a few days ago, shooting a white interior wall in late afternoon indirect daylight, wide open at ISOs 160, 640 and 2500, with or without auto lens recognition on. I'll send the files to anyone who really wants to see them, but it's not worth three or four screenfulls of this forum. There is vignetting, but no distinct color shift in the corners. The three colors stay within about 5 points when the center of the frame is balanced to 240,240,240. Auto Lens ID introduces the lens-specific vignetting correction which is not strong enough to make the frame uniformly white wide open, but may compensate for most of mid-aperture vignetting. The correction gets progressively weaker at ISO 640 and 2500. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted March 18, 2010 Share #84 Posted March 18, 2010 Incidentally, snow scenes are a tricky test, since the snow tends to drive underexposure elsewhere in the image (the exposure system wants to make it middle grey). The best test I am aware is to set exposure correction to +1/2/3 or +2 and shoot a uniform white image. This places the center of the image at about 230-240 in the 8-bit rendering, and leaves lots of room to see vignetting or shifts in the corners. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 18, 2010 Share #85 Posted March 18, 2010 In the meantime until we see some examples from the M9 I take my freedom to present some more with the M8. This time photos taken under indirect daylight, WB "auto", EV+1, nor corectio in C1 besides processing for JPG. All with UV/Ir-Filter, lens detecion on with UV/IR. Still no negative vignetting (read: a tell-tale sign of overcorrection) even at f/16; that’s not what I had expected. On the other hand I’d be hard pressed to suggest an alternative explanation for the red corners. And than I had thought things would be much simpler with the M8 as compared to the M9 (due to the different nature and location of the filters)! Anyway, there appears to be a fairly constant amount of overcorrection – constant across different lenses and f-stops. The question is whether it is also constant across different copies of camera, lens, and filter. One would have expected this to be a big issue if it was – and from day one, not just in the wake of the M9 and its own, somewhat different red edges issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted March 18, 2010 Share #86 Posted March 18, 2010 WATE at 16, 18 and 21mm (EXIF only registers 16mm) at opening between f5.6 and f8: a normal everyday shooting setting. Discussion closed for me for this lens! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/115618-a-sane-attitude-to-rededge/?do=findComment&comment=1264070'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 18, 2010 Share #87 Posted March 18, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Btw, Uli, your sensor is very dirty. Sure! At least I learned one thing from my "sane attitude"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted March 18, 2010 Author Share #88 Posted March 18, 2010 Incidentally, snow scenes are a tricky test, since the snow tends to drive underexposure elsewhere in the image (the exposure system wants to make it middle grey). The best test I am aware is to set exposure correction to +1/2/3 or +2 and shoot a uniform white image. This places the center of the image at about 230-240 in the 8-bit rendering, and leaves lots of room to see vignetting or shifts in the corners. scott The best method for snowscapes is to carry a hand meter with incident light capability (that funny little opal-white dome, you know). Snow is essentially a highlight blowout problem, and incident metering is THE way to control highlights. The meter does in fact meter its own artificial highlight, and correctly done -- this is not for idiots -- it is infallibly correct. An ExpoDisc also works fine, but may require a third hand, which is not standard equipment. If you have neither handy, you can usually identify the 'snow peak' in the histogram of a trial exposure, and correct accordingly. The snowed-under old man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtoph Posted March 18, 2010 Share #89 Posted March 18, 2010 chris and Max--At the top, Lars presented a couple suggestions for seeing a bit of sanity in the red-edge matter. You've made clear how you feel. Personally, I don't find it necessary for you to keep repeating yourselves. If you just want to complain about the operation of the new firmware, why not start a new thread on the topic? seriously? i've made only two posts, the second in direct response to someone misquoting me. so yeah, if i repeated myself it was to correct an evident misunderstanding. as for a 'sane attitude' -- that's precisely what i've supplied. i have looked at my results from real-world photos, found that there was sometimes a serious problem even with ordinary focal lengths such as 28mm, and reported that finding. it's hardly just "complaining". any insanity, such as it is, comes in when it is suggested that it is unreasonable to have expected leica to get this right in the first place, that we ought to sit down and shut up. without the persistence of people "complaining", chances are we wouldn't even have this new firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtoph Posted March 18, 2010 Share #90 Posted March 18, 2010 You are misquoting and putting words in my mouth. Quite unlike your normal posts. - I never said they didn't know, and I said, given the problem, would you have preferred waiting for it whilst Leica attempted solving it. And yes, given the parameters, it may be a very difficult solution causing along wait. sorry, i got your handle confused with jono slack, who was the author of the above referenced remarks. both begin with 'j'... lame excuse. i apologize for my mistake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 18, 2010 Share #91 Posted March 18, 2010 I've looked at a lot of these "red edge" images that have been posted. Some are "real world" examples and some are test shots that are all over the place and don't represent any kind of controlled testing. Clearly the Leica attempts to correct significant lens vignetting so that is already stressing the file and further adjustments to remove the red will use up additional dynamic range that might otherwise be needed to preserve detail or to allow you to adjust the tone curve to achieve desired results. Here is one image that was posted back a couple of pages ago. I copied the left edge and re-inserted it near the right edge. The original images was pretty flat so I also posted an adjusted image that shows how the red affect may easily become more significant when you alter the tone curve. Consider that one is intentionally making a compromise to choose a Leica M9 and "smallish" wide angle lenses over let's say a 5DII and 17mm or 24mm TSE lenses. And then there are additional compromises over not using a medium format back and special wide angle lenses along with color calibration shots. And of course using any camera with a zoom lens typically implies image compromises for speed and convenience although many zoom lens defects can be corrected via the raw processor, firmware, or some other way in post. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/115618-a-sane-attitude-to-rededge/?do=findComment&comment=1264293'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 18, 2010 Share #92 Posted March 18, 2010 I have just done some further tests with the WATE/M9 after doing a reset. I used, as suggested by Lars, an inside white wall and a bounce flash (SF58 with a Sto-Fen soft box). I checked the numbers in C1 for colour balance. It would appear that the red edge is considerably better after the reset. I would have thought that the FW update did a reset but apparently not. The vignetting is still worse on the LHS, particularly lower corner but not good either side. Total luminance figures Lower LHS: 63 Centre: 137 Lower RHS: 69. I sent some sample WATE/M9 images to Solms yesterday, to ask if my WATE/M9 was normal or abnormal but no response to date. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 18, 2010 Share #93 Posted March 18, 2010 Beginning to wonder what the fuss is about. 2 real world images below. Leica 21 pre-asph and Zeiss 18. They'll do ... BTW - focal length not shown on the Zeiss 18 because Leica seems to have removed the 18mm option from the lens selection. l'll make a new BUG post... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/115618-a-sane-attitude-to-rededge/?do=findComment&comment=1264338'>More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 18, 2010 Share #94 Posted March 18, 2010 Of course one wouldn't expect to see the problem on such images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 18, 2010 Share #95 Posted March 18, 2010 That's the whole point ... And you do expect to see problems with snow and white walls because of all the reasons that have been pointed out above! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 18, 2010 Share #96 Posted March 18, 2010 That's the whole point ... And you do expect to see problems with snow and white walls because of all the reasons that have been pointed out above! What is the whole point? Of course saturated photos with dark edges won't show the issue. But other photos will. Just as shots of some subjects won't show barrel distortion as well as an architectural shot will. And if you only shoot portraits, you probably don't care if the corners are not so sharp. It depends on how critical you are about a given image. That is why some MF backs will require a color calibration shot for critical applications. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 18, 2010 Share #97 Posted March 18, 2010 Alan - really not trying to take the p*** on this - but if you look at the 21 pre-asph shot, it's NOT saturated and the edges aren't dark ... OK it's a red-brick wall, but there's no perceptible issue with the colour. And when I think about it, if I was photographing cars for a manufacturer and had to get the colour 100% under the contract, I'd not use an M anyway - I'd use a medium format camera in controlled lighting conditions with a whole crew of assistants. Isn't there an issue of horses for courses here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 18, 2010 Share #98 Posted March 18, 2010 Alan - really not trying to take the p*** on this - but if you look at the 21 pre-asph shot, it's NOT saturated and the edges aren't dark ... OK it's a red-brick wall, but there's no perceptible issue with the colour. And when I think about it, if I was photographing cars for a manufacturer and had to get the colour 100% under the contract, I'd not use an M anyway - I'd use a medium format camera in controlled lighting conditions with a whole crew of assistants. Isn't there an issue of horses for courses here? Well that is a saturated subject as opposed to one with very subtle colors. Thus minor differences in color across the image may not be significant enough in proportion to the other colors to be be noticeable. Similarly, the difference in color between your two sample shots does exist... some won't care. I often shoot room interiors with controlled lighting but that doesn't mean I expect or will get "perfect" color across the entire scene. As there are various effects from the existing light and color bouncing off of walls and other subjects that helps give mood to the shot. But it is good to know that I have a consistent starting point. If people don't care about critical results from a Leica, then why do they buy one? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/115618-a-sane-attitude-to-rededge/?do=findComment&comment=1264386'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 18, 2010 Share #99 Posted March 18, 2010 ... Isn't there an issue of horses for courses here? Yes of course, though it isn't insane to exspect a Leica M being a good working horse for many courses. Of cause I'd never see any problems with the photos you posted above. I'd neither see a problem with the photo adan posted in # 9 - though he sees a big one. If I look at jlancasterd's examples in #39 i see no problem in his first one, but a big one in his second. I use the M8 for non-professional fun - so I am not completely sane to use a digital Leica with very expensive lenses at all. My white-balance and exposure may be way off many times, so the little red edges the 3.8/18 show me don't matter much. On the other hand it's part of my insane fun, that I think, when I try hard enough the lens and camera give me results which could not be better. When I realize in some cases, that I can try as hard as I can but the results will keep their flaws, my fun is flawed. I don't think this is completely insane. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 18, 2010 Share #100 Posted March 18, 2010 Keeping it brief: 1. New firmware + reset does show some improvement with my 21 pre-ASPH - the red left edge is a smoother transition and is slightly less saturated, and the corresponding cyan drift I had on the right has been eliminated. Still too much to ignore though in blue skies and subtle colors. 2. I guess I have to ask: if this is all just optics and angles of incidence, why the asymmetry? Do the laws of physics only apply to the left side of the frame? 3. I guess I have to ask: if this is all just physics - why the variability? Some people say (and demonstrate) that they have no red-edge with the same lens that produces it rather obviously on a different camera. I can do it myself - the image posted below was shot with the exact same lens (and aperture) as my previous image on this thread - but on a demo M9 (FW 1.002) in September. If there is any red drift it is microscopic - and well within the acceptable range. Why do a fair number of production cameras (including mine) perform differently? 4. Certainly there are situations where the red edge is not noticeable. Unfortunately, I can't limit myself to only shooting subjects that have red brick walls on the left side. 5. At this point, except for the welcome extra resolution, my M9 is performing worse with a Leica 21 than my M8s did with a IR-filtered Cosina 15mm (same field of view), in terms of color integrity across the frame. "Not as good as a $500 Cosina" - Is that really the marketing position Leica wants for their wide angles? 6. As to the "horses for courses" argument - I'm sorry, but color integrity across the frame is not the same thing as lacking AF or lenses longer than 135mm or macro capability. How long would Leica have survived on that argument if their film rangefinder images were always red on one side? Would the M8 have survived with the defense that green corners or purple blacks were just something one had to live with? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/115618-a-sane-attitude-to-rededge/?do=findComment&comment=1264453'>More sharing options...
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