Is the new M8 firmware just around the corner?

[redbaron]

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I really don't understand this firmwear issue. I don't expect upgrades to any of my computer controlled stuff, including my car, TV, or even my Macs. Updating the OS on them seems to be for security, which is an external issue that develops beyond the control of Apple.

 

In the imortal words of KR (not the hack):

"You got to know when to hold 'em,

know when to fold 'em.

Know when to walk away, know when to run."

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[marknorton]

I really don't understand this firmwear issue.

 

Firmwear? Is that some sort of Australian Jock Strap?

[plasticman]

I really don't understand this firmwear issue. I don't expect upgrades to any of my computer controlled stuff, including my car, TV, or even my Macs. Updating the OS on them seems to be for security, which is an external issue that develops beyond the control of Apple.

 

In the imortal words of KR (not the hack):

"You got to know when to hold 'em,

know when to fold 'em.

Know when to walk away, know when to run."

 

Well obviously this is complete rubbish, because Apple continually upgrades the system software - sometimes paid (for major updates) and sometimes not (for minor updates and fixes) giving totally new, faster and better functionality to your computer.

Security fixes are something totally separate.

 

Sorry for saying so, but this post seemed to have been made without any thought whatsoever - I mean, Apple upgrades their system software in a MAJOR way about once a year at least - and incidentally support older models as far back as is physically possible.

 

EDIT: Seriously, I'm shaking my head in bewilderment here - we've come so, SO far in updates - even since the relatively recent introduction of OSX - and you're saying that all the amazing functional advances from Apple of the last few years amount to a few security fixes?? Wow - I dunno what you guys are smoking down under, but I think I wanna get me some of that powerful stuff.

[Jamie Roberts]

Even my kid's Wii system upgrades itself

 

I don't think it's too much to expect the computer software in the M8 to be improved from time to time--especially when there are outstanding and reasonably major bugs left to fix or performance to optimize...

[Guest BigSplash]

Well obviously this is complete rubbish, because Apple continually upgrades the system software - sometimes paid (for major updates) and sometimes not (for minor updates and fixes) giving totally new, faster and better functionality to your computer.

Security fixes are something totally separate.

 

Sorry for saying so, but this post seemed to have been made without any thought whatsoever - I mean, Apple upgrades their system software in a MAJOR way about once a year at least - and incidentally support older models as far back as is physically possible.

 

EDIT: Seriously, I'm shaking my head in bewilderment here - we've come so, SO far in updates - even since the relatively recent introduction of OSX - and you're saying that all the amazing functional advances from Apple of the last few years amount to a few security fixes?? Wow - I dunno what you guys are smoking down under, but I think I wanna get me some of that powerful stuff.

 

Plasticman I agree with you...and as usual I do not agree with RedBaron. Clearly he has a lack of knowledge in the area of high tech that needs to be explained....and many others in the forum probably have the same need. I am not trying to be clever as believe me I continue to learn about this stuff and the learning experience actually excites me.

 

Some observations that go far beyond the concept of guarding against security issues caused by external forces such as hackers, generators of viruses or nasty people who just want to get your GPS position and image for questionable and probaly illegal purposes. I give my own Mercedes Car delivery as an Example:

1. I take delivery of a new Mercedes car and am told that I must be at the delivery site (Main agent) by 10.00 am latest so that I can be trained on my new car's capability. I arrived at 9.30am and did not leave the garage until 12.30 having had a lesson on GPS, Radio Channel selection, System set up etc etc. I was as a techie amazed.
   
2. I drove my wife to go shopping 30 minutes away after this experience . Unfortunately I was unable to switch off the radio despite pressing every button due to a software glitch. . I returned to the main agent that same day and they spent 3 hours to fix the problem by doing a complete software reset and reinstall of all functions (Antiskid, Engine Management, MultiMedia etc) with a new factory software update.
   
3. I have had in two years several recalls from Mercedes for firmware upgrades and one trivial hardware upgrade.
   
4. It seems to me that some companies such as Mercedes take software upgrades very seriously. The upgrades that I have experienced have not overall been even noticeable to me but I am pleased to have had a supplier that seemingly wants me to have the best.
   

Apple, Adobe, etc

They all see the need to introduce updates...so why should Leica be different?

 

 

My view is that high end digital cameras occupy a niche where I believe that Leica belongs and that drives a need for a committed, regular upgrade mentality of the firmware that is actually part of the product purchased by the user. I still for example get Windows XP upgrades.

 

If I am missing something please let me know.

[andybarton]

I think that you'll find you get security updates only to Windows XP, which is now two generations of Windows OS out of date.

[redbaron]

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Geez! Calm down. I just making the point that if you don't like the thing get rid of it.

[twolniewicz]

Ok, here's where I think this debate can be clarified and where I'd like to see Leica go in the future. Firmware (not firmwear) releases can be catagorized into two categories. Bug Fixes and New Features.

 

As far as bug fixes go, I feel that Leica has an obligation and duty to its customers to address software bugs that it is aware of and can reproduce if-f its possible and its not limited by the hardware (e.g. hardware bugs, memory restrictions, physical/mechanical limitations, etc..)

 

As far as features go, the sky is the limit, BUT I do NOT feel that Leica is obligated to add features to an older camera. If you want the latest feature, you'd go and buy the model that supports that. Backdating and re-developing features has an additional and unplanned cost associated with it. Although it would be nice, its the economies that dictate this feasability and if Leica sees $0.00 from it, its not going to invest time and money to retrofit software features on models that it no-longer sells and sees any revenue from.

 

We all know that Leica has a hardware upgrade path for the older M8 (due to the M8.2 release) with a revised shutter, viewfinder and display. Leica did this largely due to the fact that the hardware developed for the 8.2 was widely compatible with that of the M8 and therefore possible to retrofit. But I don't see Leica developing brand NEW hardware just for the M8 - same goes for software/firmware.

 

I hope this can clarify a lot of the colorful disputes in this thread in a more logical and clear manner.

 

Best regards,

 

Tom.

[thompsonkirk]

Tom, I think you missed the point that Leica announced clearly that all upgrades that were compatible with the camera's hardware would be available. Unlike any other camera, the M8 was supposed to be the one you could always upgrade.

 

That's how we got the M8.2's Discreet mode for the M8. Leica initially wanted to deny it to M8 owners, so they'd have to buy M8.2s. But folks complained in the light of the policy above, & the upgrade became available.

 

The same would presumably apply as well to manual setting of lenses. Of course it would take some programming, but that would be the price of honoring a previously announced policy. It's another ethical issue that the previous management team bungled into.

 

Kirk

[plasticman]

I just making the point that if you don't like the thing get rid of it.

 

In light of the fact that almost everyone contributing to this thread has said how much they love and enjoy their M8, your suggestion to "get rid of it" doesn't really seem to be so constructive.

 

Anyway to get back to the main topic, there are so many M8s out there, and so many enthusiastic owners, Leica would be simply foolish to flip them all the finger.

[ottocrat]

What an odd discussion!

 

Would we like new M8 firmware? Yes.

 

Is Leica obliged to offer us new M8 firmware? No.

 

Could some of the M8's weaknesses be fixed with new firmware? Probably (manual lens selection?).

 

If we don't get new M8 firmware, will large numbers of M8 users abandon Leica? I seriously doubt it.

 

So does it make commercial sense for Leica to invest resources in upgrading the M8's firmware again? Probably not. What's in it for Leica? Some temporary goodwill from the community? We all know how fickle that is. While on the other hand the kind of firmware upgrade we all want could steal sales from the M9 and from Leica's own coded lenses.

 

I don't really see the point in arguing about it. Yes it would be nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Gerard]

:rolleyes:It will be interesting to return to this thread in a year's time and see how we all feel. Until then, how about a nice cup of tea?

[SiOnara]

Manual lens selection would be nice though

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

So does it make commercial sense for Leica to invest resources in upgrading the M8's firmware again? Probably not. What's in it for Leica? Some temporary goodwill from the community? We all know how fickle that is. While on the other hand the kind of firmware upgrade we all want could steal sales from the M9 and from Leica's own coded lenses.

{snipped}.

 

Nonsense. Of course it makes commercial sense for Leica--a premium brand, after all--to take care of its customers. That's part of who the company is, and why they command such respect (and prices) from the community. And Leica used to take care of their customers to a far greater extent than they do now... and built a reputation on that as well as for optical and mechanical excellence

 

While I don't expect a re-born Passport warranty or perpetual upgrade or even new features from an M8 upgrade, I do expect fixes and optimizations. And the benefit to the company accrues to the brand and it's reputation: that is not temporary goodwill, but brand ethics and character. Leica can't be "Leica" without that reputation.

 

So it makes perfect sense for them to be able to fix the computer in the M8 as it becomes possible. For a fee? Perhaps, though there are still write issues / lockups with the original M8 that should be fixed.

 

And I don't think they're stealing sales from the M9 either. No-one I know would upgrade to an M9 simply for a manual lens menu (having said that, I fully expect someone to chime in here and tell me that's what they would do )

[ho_co]

... most of us don't want or believe in the 'perpetual upgrade' crock. But for relatively little cost and effort, Leica can strongly reinforce the image of their brand as different to the other mass-market models. ...

Well said, Mani. I think we're all on the same page there.

 

... Leica announced clearly that all upgrades that were compatible with the camera's hardware would be available. Unlike any other camera, the M8 was supposed to be the one you could always upgrade....

I'd like to see a link to that, Kirk. I know Guy Mancuso remarked on the forum he felt that was the case and that he thought Canon and Nikon would be forced to do the same. I don't remember Leica saying that. (OTOH, S K Lee did say some things that I think many of us hoped would be possible. )

 

In fact, isn't the statement self-contradictory? I don't think you can logically jump from "upgrades available so long as they're compatible with the camera's hardware" to "a camera that's always upgradable." I believe Leica made the former statement, but not the latter.

 

 

... That's how we got the M8.2's Discreet mode for the M8. Leica initially wanted to deny it to M8 owners, so they'd have to buy M8.2s. But folks complained in the light of the policy above, & the upgrade became available....

There were a lot of people on the forum who felt they had forced Leica to this choice, but the facts don't require that interpretation. They are just as compatible with the idea that Leica was testing the software for use with the M8's non-upgraded shutter during the time the forum was crying about it, and simply made it available when it passed the test. Occam's razor would require the latter interpretation, IMHO.

 

... The same would presumably apply as well to manual setting of lenses. Of course it would take some programming, but that would be the price of honoring a previously announced policy. It's another ethical issue that the previous management team bungled into.

Possibly so, but didn't Stefan say specifically that the M8 lacked physical capacity for manual lens settings? There's a clear case where Leica added that functionality to the M9 on the basis of customer requests and has said so.

 

I think we're off on a wrong tack here, talking about paying for firmware. As I read the Stefan Daniel citations, he said there would be another firmware update for the M8, and there might also be a paid upgrade path to add some M9 features to the M8. There's no mention of whether that would be doable by firmware alone.

 

 

.. And Leica used to take care of their customers to a far greater extent than they do now... and built a reputation on that as well as for optical and mechanical excellence

Jamie, I think Leica is still taking the same care of their customers as they always have. Look at the way they responded to Tim's discovery of faults with the current 35 Summilux, or at the complete update to latest standards on any billable repair.

 

... While I don't expect a re-born Passport warranty or perpetual upgrade or even new features from an M8 upgrade, I do expect fixes and optimizations. ... Leica can't be "Leica" without that reputation.

Agreed, and I see no reason to doubt that they will. I would guess that's what the promised M8 firmware is about.

 

How long was the DMR no longer available before the final firmware update came along? I think Leica pursued the problems till they got them fixed as well as they could.

[rami G]

Geez! Calm down. I just making the point that if you don't like the thing get rid of it.

 

No you are not "just making them point"... you are saying false things as part of your "argument".

[rami G]

Sorry to repeat that (with others), just in the hope that Leica rep. is reading here: I don't think it is too much to expect that Leica enables a full bit non-compressed raw option. And yes, I am aware it might slow down my camera significantly. This is one thing I feel they are obliged to do- to allow us to use the full potential of the 3-4 years old sensor.

[andreas_thomsen]

i don't know how much manpower is needed for FW updates but i think leica could relaese the 'M8 code' to the public at least 2 years after the last M8 was sold - so they face no warranty issues if the people programm the FW updates for themselves.

cheers

andy

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest BigSplash]

I tend to believe that Leica will EVENTUALLY bring out a firmware upgrade to fix the known M8 problems, simply because they would be foolishly tarnishing their brand image if they did not. I think what is not good is the length of time it seems to be taking for the firmware release given that there are well known problems since now many months. We are told that patches have been developed, and tested for M8 to fix for example the shutter lock up issue ........so why Leica does not just issue a new firmware after now one year since the last release is strange IMHO.

 

People have said why should Leica spend 1cent on upgrading (ie Not known bug fixes but adding functionality) M8 features rather than spending their efforts on M9 and M10. I have two answers:

1. It shows their commitment to look after their clients like Hasselblad do. I appreciate the knowledge that Leica will always be there to fix my cameras and I value this as "part of a Leica product". It justifies in many ways the high price of a Leica product
   
2. They can make quick money by selling extra functionality and if this is done by firmware using code from the M9 development the revenue is basically pure profit. The market opportunity is 40,000 M8 cameras (many of which would be interested in manual lens selection for example). It will take Leica a long time at 50 units per day to build that many M9's.
   

[Guest BigSplash]

I think that you'll find you get security updates only to Windows XP, which is now two generations of Windows OS out of date.

 

Andy I would point out:

1. Windows XP launched in 2001 is still getting REGULAR updates (I have Version 5.1) and every few weeks my computer asks me if I wish to apply the updates.
   
2. I bought my M8 June 2009 and that would equate to Windows Vista not XP
   
3. Microsoft are supporting XP and Vista and have not just focussed Windows 7