Is the new M8 firmware just around the corner?

[andybarton]

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It might be easier for them to add the "manual coding" option (if that's possible) so that they don't have to keep revisiting the fw for ever.

[erl]

Snipped quote from 'Bigsplash':

"If they now do not support firmware upgrades for this camera........."

 

Frank, based on the above assumption, you have gone on to elaborate four points of criticism of Leica. This seems, from my occasional reading of your posts, your prime modus operandi. I suggest that you desist from basing continual criticism on pure suppositions like "if..." and start sourcing genuine knowledge for any legitimate criticism you care to make.

 

I am not one to suggest Leica is above criticism, but please keep it based on substantial facts. I have not read this entire thread, so if you have previous genuinely established your four points as fact, then I gracefully withdraw.

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[stunsworth]

I can't speak for Frank, but my personal opinion is that even if Leica were to never release another firmware update for the M8 I'd be more than happy with the camera I have. It's about the photographs isn't it ? - and I've found the M8 to be a wonderful picture taking machine.

 

What I find tedious here from time to time is the constant concentration on what something _isn't_ rather than what it is. It is what it is, is unlikely to be revamped or fundamentally changed, so either use it or sell it.

[jose]

I would like Leica to follow the example of Hasselblad.

 

For many years swedish house released its first digital back, and today it continue to update the firmware of the oldest digital backs.

 

All these old digital backs have great picture quality thanks to this maintenance, and software development common to them all.

 

I would like -in a few years- the body of my M8.2, a bit outdated by technology, had a brain updated.

 

Does that happen?

Regards,

jose.

[plasticman]

I can't speak for Frank, but my personal opinion is that even if Leica were to never release another firmware update for the M8 I'd be more than happy with the camera I have. It's about the photographs isn't it ? - and I've found the M8 to be a wonderful picture taking machine.

 

What I find tedious here from time to time is the constant concentration on what something _isn't_ rather than what it is. It is what it is, is unlikely to be revamped or fundamentally changed, so either use it or sell it.

 

Steve - I'm really happy with the camera also - never had a camera that's given me such pleasure, in fact. But it does have some shortcomings or known problems that I'd be very pleased that Leica addressed: it would potentially give me even greater pleasure in using the camera, and it would reinforce my confidence in the company supporting this product, and other future ones that I might buy.

I'm not sure how that can be a bad thing for either me or them?

[Guest BigSplash]

Guys I fully agree that the M8 is a wonderful camera, and it has for me reopened the door to what has been a closed hobby of photography. I can use all of my lenses, as well as my Visoflex and the results are astounding. I said as much in my earlier thread. I have a Digilux 2 also and various M film cameras but the M8 is just superb.

 

My sentiment is exactly in line with what Hasselblad have done and in my opinion Leica should as a premier brand follow this example.

 

Erl for me your posting says that you did not bother to read my previous thread yet you critiqued it nevertheless. For me this is a new approach, which I guess we can all learn from. You also asked for facts:

 

It is a FACT that Leica have not announced when they will release a new firmware for M8 or M8.2. The last one was March 2009.

 

It is a FACT that Leica have not provided any release date for further firmware, nor make M9 features available to M8 owners. (Stefan D. did casually remark in an interview that they may offer M9 features at an extra price.......that was now many months ago and it is a FACT that we have heard nothing officially since)

 

It is a FACT that Leica under S.Lee announced that the M8 was to be a future proof camera and it is a FACT that Leica have never retracted S.Lee's comments on this subject, nor have they retracted their marketing commitments at the time of the M8 release.

 

It is a FACT that Leica are fully aware of the shutter lock up glitch since one year (March 2009 at the time of the last update) and it is also a FACT that they have not released a patch to fix this.

 

It is a FACT that there are other small glitches in the current firmware and here I would also include camera profiles for Adobe, (Competing high end cameras seem to have several tweaked profiles for Adobe)

 

Erl I hope that the above facts are actually wrong and if so maybe you can correct me however I fear that I am correct and this is in my view a reflection on Leica IF it wishes to be recognised as a premier brand. ...sorry Erl I could not resist one "IF"

[Jamie Roberts]

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{snipped}

 

It is a FACT that there are other small glitches in the current firmware and here I would also include camera profiles for Adobe, (Competing high end cameras seem to have several tweaked profiles for Adobe)

{snipped}

 

This has nothing whatever to do with Leica. Other camera companies offer their own software (like Capture NX for Nikon and Canon's Digital Photo Professional) for "best" or reference conversion.

 

Canon and Nikon (quite famously) don't provide anything for Adobe Lightroom or Photoshop. The "profiles" (just settings, really) that are currently available for those cameras and Lightroom are the work of the Lightroom community or Adobe itself.

 

So Frank, if you're not getting great results from Lightroom with your M8, blame Adobe, not Leica. Or just use C1 and forget it

Edited March 14, 2010 by Jamie Roberts

[jaapv]

Or just make your own profile...

[erl]

Frank, you have not 'disappointed' me. Your style of response and comment is true to form. You have said: "Erl for me your posting says that you did not bother to read my previous thread yet you critiqued it nevertheless. For me this is a new approach, which I guess we can all learn from."

 

No Frank, I did not criticize any earlier thread, just your earlier post in this thread, which I specifically selected for content that I criticized. I did refer to your 'usual style' which I criticized as a generalization.

 

 

"You also asked for facts:"

 

Actually no. I simple counseled you to stick to facts when criticizing. I am not particularly interested in facts or fiction when it comes to the M8. I am perfectly happy with the performance of my M8's as they are.

 

Again, you have reiterated your version of 'faults' which I do not focus on, mainly because they do not help my photography. I keep my focus on two things only. 1. The performance, not the failing, of my gear, and 2. the subject in front of my camera. You should try it sometime. It really improves your appreciation of what you already have.

 

I am quite aware that there is some room for improvement in firmware as far as some user's are concerned and I will happily apply them if and when they come. But if it never happens, my ability as a photographer is very well complemented by my present kit of two M8's and one M9. Yes a firmware upgrade is due (tomorrow) for the M9 and I will welcome it. However, I have used the M9 (and the M8's) cameras extensively in India and Antarctica and been totally satisfied with the cameras performance. If it gets better, fine. If it stays the same, I am satisfied with them as tools for my purpose.

 

My other application for my M's is to head into the city periodically and go for the 'bigsplash' with streetshooting. Sorry Frank, I couldn't resist that last crack.

[robert-gregory]

I didn't buy an M8 or M8.2, but went directly to an M9. Although the M8 seemed like a good camera there were a number of enhancements that just made the total package in the M9 the M-digital that I wanted. A couple of those features mentioned for a new firmware for the M8 I would have hoped for; manual lens coding and ISO button (replacing the protect button).

 

Of interest for those thinking about a new firmware for the M8. there is a part of the long interview introducing the M9 to a few reviewers, they talked about the M8 also - 'An Interview with Leica's Stephan Daniel'

 

over at

 

An Interview with Leica's Stephan Daniel

 

Basically it sounds like he is saying the M8 is a 'mature' product, and that to add more, a total rewrite of the firmware would be needed. (Never say never, but...) Something Leica was not contemplating at this time. If you want more than the M8 has in its present feature set, the M9 is the option Leica is giving you.

[ho_co]

Frank, I find your stolidness a bit annoying. Or maybe boring. Haven't decided yet. At least, you write in grammatical and complete sentences with capitalization and punctuation, and that's a tremendous plus. Good on you!

 

Leica hasn't announced dates for future firmware updates. Check your calendar. Neither Canon nor Nikon nor Pentax nor anyone else announces pending firmware release dates. Red herring.

 

No, Leica said the M8 would be updatable to later versions to as great a degree as possible, so long as it was in the line. They fulfilled that promise. Dr Kaufmann quickly corrected S K Lee's implication that a full-frame M8 might be coming. Incorrect statement from your side.

 

Yes, as both Robert's link to the LuLa interview (post 30) and my above link (post 16) say, Stefan Daniel said Leica may offer additional (M9-like) features for an additional cost. You're right, that hasn't happened yet. So your argument comes down to, "Well, they said they might do it, but they're not doing it fast enough for me." Rather a childish point of view, don't you think?

 

You're beginning to sound like Mitch Alland in my opinion. Though as for that, at least you do tend to express yourself more succinctly and with less personal bias.

Edited March 15, 2010 by ho_co

[ohdannyboy]

My biggest question for Leica would be - how would they enforce firmware upgrades for pay? It's quite easy (and definitely unethical) for one person to purchase these "special" firmware upgrades and then share it with everyone else. It's probably not worth Leica's time to program in a way to "self-destruct" upon upgrade of one's M8 firmware.

[mjh]

My biggest question for Leica would be - how would they enforce firmware upgrades for pay? It's quite easy (and definitely unethical) for one person to purchase these "special" firmware upgrades and then share it with everyone else. It's probably not worth Leica's time to program in a way to "self-destruct" upon upgrade of one's M8 firmware.

Since we do not know whether there will be paid firmware upgrades this is all just idle speculation, but if you pay for an upgrade of your M8 you might get a unique version of the firmware checking some internal identification that is unique to your camera. Or, much simpler, you might have to send in your camera with Leica doing the upgrade.

[andybarton]

I'm not a computer coder, but I assume that it would be possible, when downloading a paid for firmware update, to require that you input your serial number, which would be written into the firmware code.

 

IF, and it's a big if, as I don't know, the M8 knows its own serial number, then the firmware would be rejected by the installer and the update process stopped.

[stunsworth]

Andy, the M8 does know its own serial number - it appears in the Exif data.

 

Not sure how updating the firmware on the fly would work, and I can't imagine sending the camera to Solms would be too popular.

[beamon]

Frank: Your positions and comments are very much those of the 'loyal opposition'. Don't let your critics lessen them in the slightest. You make your points without rancor and that's what separates you from the Leica tormentors.

 

This forum, though mostly made up of 'fanboys' (of which I consider myself one), is nicely kept on its toes by the few critics, like youself. Though criticism is not likely to change the course of Leica, it sure is needed as nothing is above heartfelt and factual (as you know it) criticism.

 

Leica has, in a brief period, taken steps to extricate itself from its dismally late start into the digital photographic world. After the M9 sales rush is over, the next year or two will determine whether Leica continues in the marketplace. I sincerely hope for their success.

[Guest BigSplash]

Frank: Your positions and comments are very much those of the 'loyal opposition'. Don't let your critics lessen them in the slightest. You make your points without rancor and that's what separates you from the Leica tormentors.

 

This forum, though mostly made up of 'fanboys' (of which I consider myself one), is nicely kept on its toes by the few critics, like youself. Though criticism is not likely to change the course of Leica, it sure is needed as nothing is above heartfelt and factual (as you know it) criticism.

 

Leica has, in a brief period, taken steps to extricate itself from its dismally late start into the digital photographic world. After the M9 sales rush is over, the next year or two will determine whether Leica continues in the marketplace. I sincerely hope for their success.

 

Roger many thanks ...much appreciated and encouraging. I actually am also a big fan of Leica since many years and have a bunch of kit including the M8. I fully agree that Leica's future will be determined (yet again) by its actions to prepare for the post M9 sales rush and I also sure hope that they will succeed. However the things that they need to address is long and they seem to be taking their time.

[Guest BigSplash]

Leica hasn't announced dates for future firmware updates. Check your calendar. Neither Canon nor Nikon nor Pentax nor anyone else announces pending firmware release dates. Red herring.

It is normal practise in the software industry, to have regular updates although committed dates are I agree not always published in advance. That said is it the case that Canon / Nikon have shutter lockup problems, or other issues of none performance since a year that they have not issued a firmware update for? Should we not expect more for a camera that is much more expensive and positions itself as a cut above the rest?

 

 

No, Leica said the M8 would be updatable to later versions to as great a degree as possible, so long as it was in the line. They fulfilled that promise. Dr Kaufmann quickly corrected S K Lee's implication that a full-frame M8 might be coming. Incorrect statement from your side.

I think you should read again what Stephen Lee and the marketing material said at the time of the M8 release. They were talking future proof hardware due to firmware upgrades, that would be released on an ongoing basis.

The Stephen Lee notorious interview with Amateur Photographer about a soon to be available FFrame camera to replace the M8 was indeed corrected by Dr Kaufmann but this had no linkage at all to firmware upgrades.

 

 

Yes, as both Robert's link to the LuLa interview (post 30) and my above link (post 16) say, Stefan Daniel said Leica may offer additional (M9-like) features for an additional cost. You're right, that hasn't happened yet. So your argument comes down to, "Well, they said they might do it, but they're not doing it fast enough for me."..........

 

You are correct. Stefan made the remark many months ago and my point is that we still do not have anything official on the subject. I guess as clients we can simply accept as usual zero communication from Leica Management on many things ...warehouse move, M9 shipping delays and committed recovery plan versus the delinquent backlog, Noctilux and other lenses delayed by several quarters, my lenshood and filter (ordered last October ...still no news!) and firmware.

 

I am now buying my filters via ebay, its a fraction of the price, just as good and available. I believe one day my lenshood may arrive but if it doesn't it is not the end of the world for me ...it does beggar belief however that a premium brand can behave like this and that is my point.

 

I enjoy my M8 but am frankly increasingly feeling like an idiot accepting what so many people now take as normal Leica business practice. I'll go and take some photos.

[plasticman]

I think the thread is getting a little personal, but to address some of the points made:

 

- Stefan Daniel made the statement referenced above in an interview presenting the M9 to a select group of journalists, it was extensively discussed here at the time.

I've said it before, but I strongly believe that it was the result of some over-excitement at the launch of the new camera. Since that statement was made (effectively saying that all development on the M8 had stopped), Leica have said several times that they have continued working on a new firmware upgrade. I'd say the exhilaration of the launch eventually passed over to a more sober assessment of their business interest in supporting existing M8 users.

 

- As an aside, I'm constantly surprised by M9 owners who appear to support Leica's stance that cameras that have been superseded by newer models should instantly be abandoned and left to rot. Do they not think Leica is right now developing an M10 which is gonna leave their camera high-and-dry?

Surely the essence of Leica (as Hasselblad has realised) is that premium brands should treat their cameras as premium products, and their customers as premium and valued customers?

I'll say it again: this is in their own interest.

 

- Forgive me for saying so, but the idea that thousands (tens? of thousands) of users would send their M8s from around the world to Solms for a four or five week round-trip to install a firmware upgrade reminds me somehow of the IBM executive who once said that no-one would ever want a computer in their own home. Okay maybe not entirely synonymous - but the idea is suggestive of an entirely other age to me, I'm afraid.

 

- Most paid software is based on some amount of trust - otherwise every member of this forum would be using the same registration number for Photoshop. If I paid for an upgrade to my camera, then I can't imagine a scenario where I'd spread that number to other users. I think that's how most people would feel. Obviously pirated firmware would void a warranty, if anything went wrong.

 

Let's be clear about a few things - most of us don't want or believe in the 'perpetual upgrade' crock. But for relatively little cost and effort, Leica can strongly reinforce the image of their brand as different to the other mass-market models. Keeping (very recent) cameras updated would be worth way more in goodwill than seeing Hollywood celebrities with free cameras hanging around their necks, imho.

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[hudsong]

M9 just got updated today... it seems like some great improvements happened.