Need your help

[nicole]

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Dear M8 afficionados

I seriously need your help. Here is the thing: i just got recently interested in photography and Leica. Before I have never owned anything better than a compact camera. What got me interested is my son and the great photos I want to make of him.

Today I was offered an M8 from my local dealer. I have to decide very soon and as he knows I am an absolute beginner he says I should buy the Canon EOS 5 D. I am not exactly dumb but I am wondering if I will be able to learn how to handle the M8 and is it suited for little children who are my primary subject and move very fast.

I would be eternally grateful for your honest answer also with the risk that I totally made myself ridiculous in your forum. Thanks in advance, Nicole

[jacksparrow]

Ni Nicole, welcome to the forum!

I'm probably not the best suited to answer your question, because I don't have the M8, nor the Canon 5D, however, given your experience and your intended use for the camera, I think a compact would be much better suited for your needs (D-Lux 3 or C-Lux 1), it is much lighter, smaller, and you could carry it with you all the time, which might give you many nice shots of your son you'd miss otherwise.

Being cheaper and smaller doesn't mean they wouldn't give you lovely pictures.

Good luck with your purchase.

[mike prevette]

Nicole, you can't go wrong with either camera. However I would recommend the 5d for now, and possibly buy a cheaper rangefinder camera later on if your still interested. The 5d will be much more intuitive for shooting kids. Also why are you aiming at such expensive cameras for your first foray into photography? Certianly one of the cheaper dslr's will give you the quality you need. The difference between the high and low end will really be lost on pictures of your kids.

 

_mike

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Not at all , it is a very valid question and the answer is No. reason I say that is you have to be willing and able to maually focus. And this may just take you some time but than you factor in the kids and they move all over the place. Now this comes from Pro but this stuff just takes a lot of experience amd willingness to learn and the learning curve is not exactly short but the RF focusing is easier and you just aligh the RF patch but really since you came from a P&S than you really maybe better with auto focus. Not trying to say you have nobusiness buying one but i think 30d or 5D canon maybe more suited to your needs. leica M8 and DMR camera's just take more skill and dedication to it than you may have and you just may get frustrated about it becuase nothing is automatic. NOW there are camera's that leica makes that maybe perfect like the V-lux with zoom and AF stuff. Plus you get the Leica glass. I lll let someone else that knows of these camera's better than me speak about them , but the M8 is a learning curve that you may not want to tackle. I' am assuming this so not knowing your skills it just maybe to much. Hope that was taken in the way it was intended and not as a dig or anything

[devils-advocate]

I would suggest the 5D as well, or one the other 10MP dslrs out there, over the M8 for the kind of work you describe. The autofocus would be very useful.

[hamey]

Hello Nicole.

 

I have been using Leica since the early's 70's and I love em.

But horses for courses and also agree with the above.

If you want to photograph your children I would go for an Auto focus camera.

I would look at the Canon 400D or 30D or Nikon D40 or D80 much better value than Leica.

They have a huge range of lenses to choose from at very good prices.

 

You will be saving yourself a lot of money to spend elsewere.

 

Good luck on your choice.

 

Ken.

[Eoin]

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Hi Nicole,

 

Having used the Canon 1D and 5D for a while before moving back to Leica perhaps I can share my thoughts with you.

 

Leaving aside the 1D series and focusing on the 5D, it's an excellent offering from Canon. Quick to learn and use and with it's excellent full frame sensor provides outstanding image quality at all ISO's. The Canon L lenses are excellent and offer a range of prime and zoom focal lenghts some with IS (image stabilize) function and all with autofocus which can be a God send when shooting young children.

 

While autofocus has huge benifits, it does have it's weakness and only practice over time will yield predictable results. Other functions on the 5D will complement your whole learning curve in photography and at the end of the day you'll find it hard to outgrow the capabilities of the 5D.

 

There are some excellent lenses in the Canon line up and my personal favorite for shooting my baby daughter was the EF 85 f/1.2 L, but lens choice is a very personal thing and there are many to choose from.

 

While I have given you some thoughts on the 5D let me tell you why I decided to forego it and opt for the M8, it was purely a matter of comfort and sanity. The Canon system with a couple of lenses was rather bulky and sometimes heavy to carry all day long. I also found less joy in taking photos, all the automated functions seemd to detach me and my thought processes when taking photos, in the end I became lazy in a strange way.

 

Now with the M8 and 2 lenses 35mm & 75mm, the closest focal lenghts I tended to use the most with my Canon's I have a compact almost manual system that I can carry all day long and not even feel the burden. Yes it manual focus, slower but to my mind more thought provoking before I press the shutter, gone are the automated crutches I relied on only to be replaced by my (time honed skills:D ) limited long forgotten technique of basic photography. But the joy is back in bucket loads and the quality in the images (not the quality of the images) is super.

 

The M system has a steeper learning curve than the Canon but both given a good photographer behind the camera will produce excellent images. If it's a passion you intend to explore and develop and you have some basic knowlage of photography then the M8 will not disapoint. If it's just to take excellent photos of your kids then perhaps the 5D and a 24-70 f/2.8L or 24-105 f/4 IS L zooms might just be the ticket or perhaps an overkill.

 

Welcome to the forum and best wishes

 

Eoin

[Cyrshot]

Hi Nicole,

 

Great questions. Of course your dealer is offering you the M8, just like a car salesman would offer you their most expensive model. Look into the New V-Lux 1. I recently purchased it and it is a great camera. It has a 10 megepixel senor, the lense is not detacthable but, is equal to a 35mm-420mm. It's very fast and has a great auto focus feature. I believe it even has a baby mode, where you can focus on one kid in each mode and it keeps track of the dates over time while the child grows. It's comes with photo shop elements which is all you need for post, and for $850 you can actually put some money in your kids college fund rather than a loan for the M8. It's a great camera, itll do what you need and if you decide to upgrade later you can, because the price of it so much lower. Just my suggestion.

 

Leica V-LUX 1: Digital Photography Review

 

-Matt

[abrewer]

Hi Nicole.

 

First, Welcome to the Forum!

 

 

Now that we have the formalities out of the way....

 

I am going to make a recommendation, to you, with the assumption that you, having come to this place and research on Leica Camera under way, want to become a serious amateur photographer.

 

And that given the importance of the subject, you are willing to sacrifice time to that end.

 

Because learning rangefinder focusing will require your attention and your dedication. Because you will need to learn the nuances of proper exposure, and about aperture and shutter speed. Because you are about to spend a lot of money and want to see a return on that invesment.

 

Buy the M8. Buy a 28mm f2.8ASPH lens. Come here. Ask questions. Experiment, learn, fail, experience and rejoice in the effort and the results will come.

 

And you will make pictures that you and your family will treasure for a lifetime.

 

Thanks.

 

Allan

[popum]

Hi

 

I agree with the general conclusion here.

 

My M8 is on order, but I'm keeping my D80 and VR 18-200 lens for chasing my grandson around. You'll be happier learning to make attractive pictures with the DLSR at first. If you get passionate about photography you can move onto something more sophisticated later.

[terrycioni]

Hi Nicole.

 

First, Welcome to the Forum!

 

 

Now that we have the formalities out of the way....

 

I am going to make a recommendation, to you, with the assumption that you, having come to this place and research on Leica Camera under way, want to become a serious amateur photographer.

 

And that given the importance of the subject, you are willing to sacrifice time to that end.

 

Because learning rangefinder focusing will require your attention and your dedication. Because you will need to learn the nuances of proper exposure, and about aperture and shutter speed. Because you are about to spend a lot of money and want to see a return on that invesment.

 

Buy the M8. Buy a 28mm f2.8ASPH lens. Come here. Ask questions. Experiment, learn, fail, experience and rejoice in the effort and the results will come.

 

And you will make pictures that you and your family will treasure for a lifetime.

 

Thanks.

 

Allan

 

Good advice.

 

Nicole, once you own a Leica M and learn the nuances of rangefinder photgoraphy and how to use it - the manual focus as opposed to auto focus will most likely produce more keepers. I do have a 28 Elmarit I don't have the 28 ASPH Elmarit but the 28mm is almost a perfect entry level lens for the M8. Owning a Leica is lifetime experience...

 

PS. Although I have several film Leica's, I sold the 5D to help finance the M8.

 

Cheers. Terry.

[canlogic]

I would agree with above. I have both the M8 and the Canon 5D. The M8 in fact is a much simpler camera to use, the only thing you have to get used to is the manual focus. With the 28mm 2.8 it is almost a non issue though. The 5D is a fairly sophisticated camera with a great many menu choices and options, mind you though you can just put it on auto and shoot away. Either one will make an excellent choice but the M8 really is nice.

[AlanG]

I would recommend that you buy at most an entry level DSLR with the basic zoom lens.

It will be easy to take pictures of your son with any of these cameras. And you could get it for $600-$800. Why would you want to spend $3000 - $7000 for a camera and lens just to take snapshots of your son? The more expensive cameras won't make it easier and won't add significantly to the quality of what you are likely to produce.

 

Most importantly take a class in photography to learn how to use it providing you are interested in getting more out of photography. If you continue to have interest and aptitude, you can get something else later should you find the entry level camera limiting in significant ways.

[earleygallery]

Nicole,

 

A few questions if I may.

 

What is it about Leica that has interested you?

What will you do with the images you take, will you e mail them to family/friends, will you print them, and if so what is the maximum size you are likely to want?

How much time do you intend to spend on your photography, i.e. are you really interested in learning the nuts and bolts of it, happy to learn about post processing, colour profiling, etc., or do you just want excellent results as easily as possible?

 

I fear you may be thinking along the lines of "I want to take better pictures so if I spend X more on a camera my pictures will be X times better".

 

You say you are a beginner. An M8 isn't a beginners camera, neither is a 5D. It's rather akin to buying a Ferrari to learn to drive in.

 

Making some assumptions I would also suggest a compact such as a CM. It might look like a typical P&S but it has a fabulous lens. Have your film processed and scanned at the same time. Many years from now you will still have those negs as the best kind of archive.

 

If you must have digital, a C lux or D Lux, or if you want something that you can do a bit more with in terms of adding new lenses then look at one of the DSLR's already mentioned.

 

Once you've mastered one of these cameras, and feel limited by them in some way, then it will be time to move up.

[ho_co]

Nicole--

Welcome aboard, with a very good question.

 

Are you sure the M8 or 5D is the right place to start? They are certainly both excellent cameras, but most folks don't start off with Leica at all--one usually arrives there after seeing what one can't do with other companies' lenses; and most don't start off with second-of the line Canon--one usually starts off with lesser equipment and moves up.

 

You want to "make great photos of your son." I honor that and admire your ambition. I have Leica but for the most part don't make great photos. It takes time to acquire the skills to make good images, no matter how great your love of the craft or your subject.

 

When you decided to move up to a more serious automobile from your first car, did you think Ferrari, Aston, Maserati?

 

I don't want to dampen your enthusiam. I personally far prefer the size and inconspicuousness of my M system (still waiting for an M8) to my D200, but for some situations the Nikon's ease of use makes it the better choice.

 

Good equipment is always expensive. Perhaps it might be better to consider starting with a more consumer-oriented Canon, Nikon or Pentax? Get your feet wet, get a feel for which way you'd like to move.

 

All the advice on this thread is well thought through. Consider it, but then go your own way.

 

By the way--Does the dealer have an M8 in stock? If not, he'll make a quicker sale if you buy the 5D. And if he does have an M8 in stock, he can sell it quickly to someone else if you buy the 5D and make two sales instead of one.

 

But there's also the fact that you've spoken to the dealer; he may have assessed your needs well.

 

Maybe flip a coin?

 

Good luck!

 

Respectfully,

--HC

[scjohn]

When I shoot children and must must get a clean portrait-style shot I use a Nikon D2x. My wife thinks it is too big and uses my lens on a D70. The photos 0f kids I love, however, are taken with my leica.

 

If you want instant praise use autofocus.

[ho_co]

When I shoot children and must must get a clean portrait-style shot I use a Nikon D2x. My wife thinks it is too big and uses my lens on a D70. The photos 0f kids I love, however, are taken with my leica.

 

If you want instant praise use autofocus.

Steven, I think you just summarized this entire thread! Well said!

 

--HC

[mitchell]

Nicole,

 

I applaud your interest and ambition. I'm assuming that money is not much of a consideration for you or you wouldn't be considering the M8 or 5D.

 

People take excellent and poor photos with each and also excellent photos with inferior cameras. Much of the choice in cameras is rational, but a great deal, and even the most significant part is not.

 

SLR like the 5D can use long telephoto lenses, and macro lenses, bringing you close to far away subjects, and very, very close to near subjects.

 

Rangefinders like the M8 can't do this. Rangefinders allow you to see not only what is going to be in the picture but what surrounds the picture frame. This can be helpful in framing and seeing what is going to enter the picture field next. Rangefinders tend to be easier to focus in low light.

 

While rangefinders require a certain level of learned skill, they are less complicated, have fewer buttons, menus, and are less busy over all. They can give a sense of simplicity and control. Sometimes with a DSLR you're not sure what the camera is doing. It's a similar to driving an automatic shift car, or am manual shift car. I myself like manual shift cars, and manual focus cameras like the M8. Many photographers strongly prefer one type over the other even though they take to same type of pictures.

 

Most of this comes down to personal preference if you're not shooting telephoto or macro. Without experience it's hard to tell where your preference falls.

 

I would ask your dealer to let you shoot both cameras as much as possible before buying. They are quite different to use.

 

The suggestion to shoot film also makes sense. You can concentrate on taking pictures and let someone else process them. You can learn a second hand SLR or an M6 for a lot less money, and then know what you want in a digital.

 

On the other hand, the instant feedback of digital is a powerful aid to learning.

 

There is nothing minor about taking pictures of your children, and nothing to say you won't take great pictures. No matter what camera you end up with, you will be the most important factor in the result. And there will be a learning curve with any camera. A course, or a photographer friend would be most helpful.

 

Have fun with it.

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

[rick_dykstra]

Hi Nicole. My reply will be based more around you than about cameras. Firstly, are you wanting to become a photographer who really understands the technical side of making good photos? That is, how you could use the lens aperture, the camera's shutter speed, ISO setting, depth of field, focus selection and composition to create the look you intend? And secondly, are you well off? If yes to both questions, then I would definitely buy the Leica M8 and Leica lenses. You will learn about photography much more quickly and completely with such a system. You will grow to appreciate the benefits of the rangefinder system and Leica quality.

 

Yes, kids move quickly, and that makes taking photos of them tricky with any camera. Leica rangefinders are fine for family photography - it's more a matter of learning how to take good photos of children than choosing one camera or another.

 

A Canon 5D is a great camera and will be perfect for family photos, but with it you will not learn in the same way as with a Leica. You'll get some great shots and some duds, but much of the time you wont know why.

 

Enjoy!

 

Rick.

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[rick_dykstra]

A thought. We might be able to help Nicole by posting some pics of kids taken with M cameras.

 

These are taken on slow slide film with a Leica MP camera and a Noctilux f1 lens, the first without flash to show how dim ambient light can look with a fast lens. The second uses a flash to freeze fast moving kids. The Noctilux was at f2 I think and I used a good bit of flash at only a 50th of a second. We doan need no autofocus-zoom-bombs 'round here!

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