Rangefinderproblems on new M9s

[ArtZ]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

 

Cliff,

 

Your Summicron 90 needs adjustment (I had the same issue).

 

How do you know it´s the lens that needs adjustment? If I understand right there seem to be many cameras out there that has been showing up this front focusing effect - and after camera adjustment been perfect. The image in itself doesn´t tell it´s a camera problem - but rangefinders out of spec seem to be common, I am afraid.

 

Regards

Anders

 

Anders,

 

When I informed Leica of my problem, Customer Service explained me that the Summicron 90 was a sensible lens with the M8 and often needed to be re-adjusted. Customer Service asked me to send all my lenses and both cameras.

 

That's exactly the advice I'm giving to Cliff. They picked-up everything at my home and fixed it. I had to do this a few times in three years (when Leica upgraded frame lines and sapphire glass and when they repaired and replaced two cameras).

 

Only three of my lenses haven given me troubles with focusing: the Summicron-M 90 APO asph, the Summicron-M 28 asph and Tri-Elmar 28-35-50 mm.

 

PS: Of course, it could also user error but this type of front focus makes me think more of hardware adjustement.

[cliffp]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

 

I don't have access to a tripod at the moment so I tried to use a table top but it wasn't very easy to get satisfactory results. I think I'll send the camera and all lenses (even my 28mm) off for calibration. I may well need a magnifying viewfinder attachment and will probably order a Japan Exposures 1.15x or 1.35x.

[ArtZ]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

 

I don't have access to a tripod at the moment so I tried to use a table top but it wasn't very easy to get satisfactory results. I think I'll send the camera and all lenses (even my 28mm) off for calibration. I may well need a magnifying viewfinder attachment and will probably order a Japan Exposures 1.15x or 1.35x.

 

You're welcome!

 

I have similar eye correction than you. Very slight astigmatism in my left eye and +1.5 diopter for presbyopia.

 

I have a Leica 1.25x and two Megaperls 1.15x / 1.35x. I like most the Megaperls 1.15x (I don't remove from one of my cameras). I have a Leica dioper adapter +1.5 in the second camera. When (very rarely) I need more magnification than 1.15x, I tend to use the Megaperls 1.35x. The problem with the Leica one is to remove the +1.5 diopter correction after use: the 1.25x Leica magnifier cames apart easily removing the diopter adapter... And if you don't screw it firmly to the magnifyer, it's very easy to lose it (I have lost two already)

 

I think I will order soon a second Megaperls 1.15x to Dirk Rösler (Japan Exposures) for the other camera and replace the Leice 1.5 diopter adapter.

[cliffp]

Thanks ArtZ

 

I am now definitely going to order a Megaperls 1.15. Whatever the improvement in the camera's rangefinder, I can see I am going to need this.

[lct]

Never heard of so many focusing issues with film Ms in 30+ years use. Never had to calibrate any of my 20+ M lenses with M3, M4, M4-2 or M6 bodies and i don't need lens calibration either with my Epson cameras. QC problems at Leica?

[ArtZ]

Never heard of so many focusing issues with film Ms in 30+ years use. Never had to calibrate any of my 20+ M lenses with M3, M4, M4-2 or M6 bodies and i don't need lens calibration either with my Epson cameras. QC problems at Leica?

 

Lucky you !

 

As you speak French, this is the e-mail from Leica concerning the Summicron-M 90 APO and as you can read they asked me to send all my lenses:

 

From: Becker, Sonja [mailto:Sonja.Becker@leica-camera.com]

Sent: Monday, 01 December 2008 11:49

To: Manuel de Aguirre

Subject: AW: Costa Rica & Problemes avec M8 SN #3329084

 

Bonjour Manuel,

 

Tout d'abord je vous remercie pour les deux belles images!

 

J'écoute avec regret que vous avez des problèmes avec votre M8 et votre Summicron 90. J'ai déjà parlé au chef du group à l'atelier et je vous prie de nous envoyer votre M8 No. 3329084 avec TOUS vos objectifs pour un ajustage. Si vous souhaitez, je peux évidemment demander un enlèvement chez GLS.

 

Je sais que cette proposition est vraiment une exigence puisque il n'y pas longtemps que votre équipement était chez nous. Bien sûr nous ferrons le nécessaire pour que vous receviez votre équipement AVANT Noel. Je m'occuperai personellement de votre dossier et si nécessaire, je reste à coté du technicien jusqu'à ce que l'ajustage soit términée!

Je vous souhaite toutefois encore un très bon temps à Costa Rica et j'attends votre prise de contact après votre réntrée.

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/ Cordialement

Sonja Becker

Leica Camera AG

Customer Service

Solmser Gewerbepark 8/ D-35606 Solms/ Germany/

www.leica-camera.com/ Sonja.Becker@leica-camera.com

Tel. +49 (0) 6442 208-189/ Fax +49(0) 6442 208-339

 

And I had to send them again back to Solms in January 2009 (one month later) with the second body because after adjusting them for the M8 SN 3329084, I realised I had now front focus problems with the other M8...

 

And all my lenses and bodies had to go back to Solms two times more: when they had to replace the shutter (May 2009) and the sensor on the other M8 (September 2009).

 

Before, in September 2007, I had to send the Summicron-M 28 ASPH because after Leica fixed the front part of the lens that came apart (detached) from the rear part, focus at short distances was completely wrong.

 

In November 2007, when I visited Solms and Leica coded my MATE, I had problems with the frame lines ring (loose ring on the MATE), so I had to send it again to fix it. It was returned to me with another problem (sticky frames lines) plus a focus problem at infinite (images were not as sharp as before). After another two trips to Solms, they got it right.

 

Now, my two M8 are really spot on but it took me a while...

 

But to be fair, I must say also that the three persons I have dealt with at CS are very nice, friendly and helpful. The French speaking people at CS are really excellent.

 

Voilà !

[lct]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Doesn't reassure me much on Leica's current reliability.

I would not send in my lenses to Solms at the risk they become inaccurate with my other bodies.

[cliffp]

ArtZ

 

Before reading this last post of yours I thought my suffering was nearly over!

[hoppyman]

M9 day one. Hand held. Minimum focus distance (.7m) APO Summicron 75mm ASPH. @ f/4. Focus on front edge of lower red petal.

The lens was checked in Solms with my M8 upgrade so I am confident that it is adjusted correctly (also perfect on my M8)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[cheewai_m6]

Dear experts,

Reading this excellent forum I get the impression that there are many new M9s with rangefinders that must be adjusted - e.g. front focusing by 2-3 cm. Mine got that problem and is away to Solms for adjustments. I am surprised that this problem seems to be so common. The rangefinder and it´s adjustment is not new to Leica - there must be very consistent methods in place in the assembling process developed during the years from the birth of the M3. How can it be then that so many of us have problems with the rangefinder in a brand new very expensive camera?? Has anyone got an answer from Solm?

 

Regards

/Anders

 

it could a number of things why your rangefinder is out of calibration. for example during transport, maybe the truck was on a bumpy road. maybe someone who handled it didn't treat it with respect, maybe someone dropped the box it was in. maybe it got knocked around. any of these can happen between solms and you and put the calibration out.

[chris_tribble]

I think there are far more OK M9s than there are problematic ones. I have two and with the 50 or 90 fully open have no problems. I've had to have rangefinders adjusted in the past - but this is usually because the body's had a serious knock ...

[cliffp]

Leica Uk are collecting my M9 and 3 lenses (90mm Cron ASPH, 50mm Cron and 28mm Cron) and sending it to Solms. They say the time in Germany should not exceed 5 working days and that Solms would probably be able to send direct to me.

[chris_tribble]

Good solution.

[Julian Thompson]

My M9 was front focussing by around 3cm too - I just stuck an allen key in the cam and turned it clockwise about 1/8th of a turn (in small increments as small as I could with test shots each time) and it is now perfect. Very simple, very quick (half an hour total) and works spot on - plus it's adjusted to my hand/eye/focussing technique which is a personal thing.

 

Give it a whirl - it's really very, very easy. (To be fair I've done it a few times on M8's so I knew what to expect but it's so much better than having to send it away each time you need a tweak)

 

(But obviously it's at your own risk etc....)

[cliffp]

I didn't fancy trying to adjust it myself. My understanding is there are two adjustments. One requiring a wrench and another requiring a special tool. The other advantage of sending the M9 and 3 lenses off together is that I should get all calibrated to work together (I got the impression through my testing that the 50mm and 90mm have different errors)

[likalar]

...... Focus on front edge of lower red petal.

 

[ATTACH]187170[/ATTACH]

 

Hoppyman,

 

Your M9 with your 75 is obviously too sharp. Send it back! ;-)

 

Larry

[ArtZ]

I didn't fancy trying to adjust it myself. My understanding is there are two adjustments. One requiring a wrench and another requiring a special tool. The other advantage of sending the M9 and 3 lenses off together is that I should get all calibrated to work together (I got the impression through my testing that the 50mm and 90mm have different errors)

 

That's a VERY wise decision. Turning the wheel will set infinite focus correctly but you may experience troubles with middle focus.

 

While I was in Costa Rica (and after informing Leica and having their agreement by phone), I played with the wheel in one camera. I got the Summicron 90 APO ASPH focusing fine at infinite but middle focus was wrong now: all subjets between 3 and 10 m were out of focus! And other lenses which were fine before, were also completely out of focus now (including infinite focus). I readjusted as it was before using another lens (a Summicron 50) which I knew it had no problems.

 

If you're sure the problem comes from the camera, not the lens(es), and misadjustment is very little, you may take the risk to play with the wheel... but I think Leica or a specialized shop do that for me.

 

[Julian Thompson]

OK so here's the thing. Let's think carefully about what is happening in a mechanical sense in a dispassionate way.

 

1) The wheel/cam arrangement transfers the focus changes to the camera's rangefinder. The more the cam pushes in to the camera the more the rangefinder moves. This is a simple arrangement and its linear or non linear function is set by the shape of the machining on the lens barrel.

 

2) As you get longer focal lengths and big apertures any mis-calibration of the position of the roller wheel (ie rangefinder patch) will be more noticable.

 

3) The adjustment is precise, beautifully made and easily done in a physical sense both backward and forwards. There is no voodoo - you can add or take away adjustment as you please.

 

So, let's assume, as I do, that you have a 21, 35, 75 and 135. If your camera's wheel is not adjusted right you will 'technically' see front (or back) focus in all your lenses, at all distances, but as the distance increases you'll find it more difficult to see this error, and of course on the shorter focal lengths you've got more depth of field anyway - so it's best to set the roller cam on your most 'difficult' lens at its widest aperture and then run some tests on the rest of your lens collection to make sure you are happy with the result.

 

In my case, once the adjustments were completed on the 75 cron at F2 working at about 1m distance or so the result is that the camera now focusses perfectly with all the lenses at all distances. When you think of the roller cam tracking round the lens barrel this isn't hard to understand - when you change the position of the cam it's just the 'reference point' you're changing.

 

Now, if you had a situation where some lenses were backfocussing and some were front focussing and you had wierdness at different distances in the first instance then I would say then you have maybe a lens issue and that therefore you would be better getting it done professionally, but I can only speak from personal experience and say that it really is the simplest adjustment and that once you've done it successfully you'll have a 'what was all the fuss about' moment !

 

It's just a screw and a wheel! It won't bite you - and if it is out of adjustment in the first place and you've got to send it in for service anyway what's the worst that you can do?

 

Just a suggestion - my other worry for you sending in the camera for this is that it only takes a 'match of the day' drop kick moment from a courier between Solms and you and your calibration might end up being knocked out before you even get the camera!!! I wonder if this is why my M9 did not focus right in the first place?

 

PS

 

I am not an expert in these matters - the above is from my own experience and are my own theories only as an enthusiastic hobby photographer with a bit of an engineering background.

[ArtZ]

OK so here's the thing. Let's think carefully about what is happening in a mechanical sense in a dispassionate way.

 

1) The wheel/cam arrangement transfers the focus changes to the camera's rangefinder. The more the cam pushes in to the camera the more the rangefinder moves. This is a simple arrangement and its linear or non linear function is set by the shape of the machining on the lens barrel.

 

2) As you get longer focal lengths and big apertures any mis-calibration of the position of the roller wheel (ie rangefinder patch) will be more noticable.

 

3) The adjustment is precise, beautifully made and easily done in a physical sense both backward and forwards. There is no voodoo - you can add or take away adjustment as you please.

 

So, let's assume, as I do, that you have a 21, 35, 75 and 135. If your camera's wheel is not adjusted right you will 'technically' see front (or back) focus in all your lenses, at all distances, but as the distance increases you'll find it more difficult to see this error, and of course on the shorter focal lengths you've got more depth of field anyway - so it's best to set the roller cam on your most 'difficult' lens at its widest aperture and then run some tests on the rest of your lens collection to make sure you are happy with the result.

 

In my case, once the adjustments were completed on the 75 cron at F2 working at about 1m distance or so the result is that the camera now focusses perfectly with all the lenses at all distances. When you think of the roller cam tracking round the lens barrel this isn't hard to understand - when you change the position of the cam it's just the 'reference point' you're changing.

 

Now, if you had a situation where some lenses were backfocussing and some were front focussing and you had wierdness at different distances in the first instance then I would say then you have maybe a lens issue and that therefore you would be better getting it done professionally, but I can only speak from personal experience and say that it really is the simplest adjustment and that once you've done it successfully you'll have a 'what was all the fuss about' moment !

 

It's just a screw and a wheel! It won't bite you - and if it is out of adjustment in the first place and you've got to send it in for service anyway what's the worst that you can do?

 

Just a suggestion - my other worry for you sending in the camera for this is that it only takes a 'match of the day' drop kick moment from a courier between Solms and you and your calibration might end up being knocked out before you even get the camera!!! I wonder if this is why my M9 did not focus right in the first place?

 

PS

 

I am not an expert in these matters - the above is from my own experience and are my own theories only as an enthusiastic hobby photographer with a bit of an engineering background.

 

Julian,

 

The LUF member newyorkone describes his experience concerning the 2mm allen key adjustment. Here're his posts:

 

12 April 2007

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/21349-m8-noctilux-backfocusing-2.html#post226607

 

19 April 2007

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/22169-backfocus-focus-shift-plot-thickens.html#post233686

 

21 April 2007

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/22169-backfocus-focus-shift-plot-thickens-4.html#post234873

 

14 Sept 2007

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/33844-so-about-backfocus.html#post354613

 

I experienced exactly the same thing.

 

 

Off topic: It's snowing in Paris

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rob_w]

Still, if the camera is delivered with incorrect adjustment in the first place -- due say to mishandling during transit -- I cannot see that sending it back to Solms and putting it through another transit is very practical.

 

The underlying question remains: why can't Leica send the camera to you from the factory corrected adjusted in the first place? (And with a clean sensor, for that matter).

 

Mysterious!