Steve Ash Posted December 20, 2009 Share #81 Posted December 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) John, with your all time negative approach the world had gone down already 500 years ago. Regards Steve Peter,I think you raise some very valid points. I think when the sales numbers are in Leica will have sold fewer M9s than it did M8s to the same folks that purchased M8s (but not all of them will have taken the plunge) and they will have added far fewer new customers than the M8 added. The net is a diminishing market. A $2000 P&S with its slow performance will not bring many new customers into the fold but will mostly sell to the same customers that purchased an M9 or M8. Hopefully the M9 will save them from the death spiral they were in when the S2 was the focus of their existence. The S2 will have such a small market as to reflect Leica's vanity more than any real contribution to the bottom line. The X1 reflects their fear of cannibalizing their M9 sales the way the CL did their M sales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Hi Steve Ash, Take a look here X1 in-depth review. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marcusperkins Posted December 20, 2009 Share #82 Posted December 20, 2009 I'm completely with John. To my mind, the camera's operation limits it to a very slow pace of life, which for a limited few will be just fine. But it does cut out a lot of potential buyers. It would benefit hugely from a Konica Hexar style AF, which had an incredibly accurate double beam infrared system which could accurately focus small objects. It was super quick, very accurate, and worked in all light including pitch black. Pop on a manual override for shooting through glass, or difficult situations for an IR system (and there aren't that many), then at least you have a very competent AF performance. Or of course have a basic rangefinder like in the Bessa. Cheap and accurate enough for a reduced frame 35mm (eqiv) 2.8 lens. Instead we get this lumbering AF system that was the bane of digital point and shoot cameras from 10 years ago. By the time you buy the optional viewfinder, and the almost certainly necessary grip, you'll add a substantial premium to the already substantial price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted December 20, 2009 Share #83 Posted December 20, 2009 Steve, I guess the numerous threads and users complaining about Leica abandoning the R users and not making an R10 instead of the S2 had a positive approach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 20, 2009 Share #84 Posted December 20, 2009 Steve, I guess the numerous threads and users complaining about Leica abandoning the R users and not making an R10 instead of the S2 had a positive approach. A least it was a constructive one. People wanting the highest IQ in the smallest digital package have no choice but the X1 and perhaps the Sigmas so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
contaxgary Posted December 20, 2009 Share #85 Posted December 20, 2009 A least it was a constructive one. People wanting the highest IQ in the smallest digital package have no choice but the X1 and perhaps the Sigmas so far. I'm guessing that you are ignoring the Ricoh GXR, because you consider it to be a larger camera. The images that I've seen coming from the Ricoh appear to rival the X1. Of course, the lens is a bit longer and the package slightly larger. BTW.. This camera also has dedicated external control of aperture and shutter speed, without resorting to the menu. It shares the slow autofocus of the X1, but a much better LCD/EVF, which can be used for manual focus. There is a manual focusing ring and a variety of focusing options. In other words, it just might work better in manual focus mode than the X1 and it has a variety of autofocus setting to speed things up. I'm going to get both in hand before buying anything and if I hear that Nikon, Sony, or Canon have a product that will launch in the next six months, I will wait. I wish Leica well, but I won't buy their camera unless it provides me with what I want, even at half the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 20, 2009 Share #86 Posted December 20, 2009 I'm guessing that you are ignoring the Ricoh GXR, because you consider it to be a larger camera... Because it is a larger camera with the APS lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
contaxgary Posted December 20, 2009 Share #87 Posted December 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) X1: 124x60x32 286gm .. I assume lens retracted GXR/A12: 114x70x77 423gm GXR/S10: 114x70x44 325gm Sigma DP2: 113x60x56 260gm I'm not so concerned about the weight difference, but that GXR A12 lens certain excludes any but the largest pockets. Of course, a wide angle lens module at f2.8 might put the GXR back in the game and the S10 greatly reduces the size, but the sensor size makes it a non-starter for low ISO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcg Posted December 20, 2009 Share #88 Posted December 20, 2009 Peter,I think you raise some very valid points. I think when the sales numbers are in Leica will have sold fewer M9s than it did M8s to the same folks that purchased M8s (but not all of them will have taken the plunge) and they will have added far fewer new customers than the M8 added. The net is a diminishing market. A $2000 P&S with its slow performance will not bring many new customers into the fold but will mostly sell to the same customers that purchased an M9 or M8. Hopefully the M9 will save them from the death spiral they were in when the S2 was the focus of their existence. The S2 will have such a small market as to reflect Leica's vanity more than any real contribution to the bottom line. The X1 reflects their fear of cannibalizing their M9 sales the way the CL did their M sales. And John, you could also have gone on to mention that the Japanese version of the CL - the CLE - was frankly a better camera, more advanced and are far more desired today than the Leica badged CL because the Minolta now sells for more than twice the price of a CL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted December 20, 2009 Share #89 Posted December 20, 2009 I think you make a very good point about the time-lag. It has also given time for the GF-1 to get a real market-share, rave reviews and users who would otherwise have bought the X1 have tried (and very much liked) it. I am a good example - I fully intended to buy the X1, but the more time has elapsed and the more I read such rave reviews of the GF-1, the more likely I am to buy one. My impulse rationale to buy the X1 has waned and I will now wait for real-world feedback in mid-2010. That is a lost sale for an X1. As the GF-1 price starts to fall, and a few early "reviews" start to appear, more support seems to be moving the way of the micro 4/3. Leica may not be trying to compete in that same market place, in their own minds. And they may feel the existing Leica user and those who aspire to Leica will still buy. Quite probably they will. But the volume of debate on-line shows that there is REAL competition from this new format and I just hope X1 sales do not disappoint as I would love Leica to succeed with this adventurous new format, for the sake of the longer-term. Let's not judge it till we see and feel it, but meanwhile we become ever-more satisfied with our GF-1's. Until more people have actually got their hands on the X1 the vast majority of this thread remains hypothetical. My info (from the official supplier) is that the reason for the delay in shipping is that parts supplied to Leica from other manufacturers weren't up to snuff so they are having to be re-manufactured. I think that's a good decision. Far better to get the product right before launching. If you like the look of the camera, wait, it'll be along soon. But I do think the initial September 9 announcement was a mistake and probably premature, and that has not been helpful to Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted December 20, 2009 Share #90 Posted December 20, 2009 But I do think the initial September 9 announcement was a mistake and probably premature, and that has not been helpful to Leica. What is so bad about announcing a product and not delivering for awhile? This happens all of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted December 20, 2009 Share #91 Posted December 20, 2009 What is so bad about announcing a product and not delivering for awhile? It diminishes one's trust especially if a date of availability to the public was announced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted December 21, 2009 Share #92 Posted December 21, 2009 It diminishes one's trust especially if a date of availability to the public was announced. Would you rather they get it right and tweak it or release it as is? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted December 21, 2009 Share #93 Posted December 21, 2009 I reckon Leica should have announced news of an upcoming compact digi to be released sometime in early 2010. This would have led to endless speculative debate on what it would look like, mega wishlists, leaked "official" pictures, and mock-ups. Loads of posts, just like the run-up to the M9. I think Leica was rushed into announcing the X1 at the same time as the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c6gowin Posted December 21, 2009 Share #94 Posted December 21, 2009 Let's face it, we all want: 1) the perfect camera; 2) in our hands immediately; and 3) for free. That isn't reality. We all have to make compromises when choosing a camera (or making one for that matter). So the trick is to find the most favorable compromise for your particular wants and needs. Some folks like me will go ahead and purchase an X1 and some will buy a GF-1 or something else. Nothing wrong with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnvelder Posted December 21, 2009 Share #95 Posted December 21, 2009 Boy the stress meter sure went up on this thread rather quickly. Look, like it or not, Leica has come up with a compact camera that couples a sizable, proven APS-C sensor with a Leica-quality Elmarit lens called the X1 and they want $2000 for it. (That's THEIR bottom line). Now if you've yearned for a compact camera (and a Leica no less) that is capable of producing superb images that rival a superb (albeit bulky) APS-C DSLR and don't mind the much discussed short comings of getting there then you'll consider forking over your $2000 for it. But on the other hand if you think in spite of the images it produces (and perhaps may have also concluded that the images it produces are only marginally better than cameras that produce them for less) that the shortcomings are waaaaay too unacceptable for a camera at this price then you won't give Leica your $2000. And that's YOUR bottom line. Couldn't agree more!!! Have pre-ordered X1 in Uk and am now going to stop reading these forums and just wait for my camera. I think it will be great - and having looked at some samples (including JPEGs) I'm feeling very hopeful. There's only so much anguishing we can do over a camera - its not like its the future of the planet!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinA Posted December 22, 2009 Share #96 Posted December 22, 2009 . The review also confirmed one of my observations that while the GF1 (a most likely competitor) shows the beginnings of noise at ISO 800 with the 1.5 stop advantage its 20mm f1.7 pancake lens has over the X1's Elmarit the noise is the same as you'd get shooting at ISO 3200 on the X1. So it's kind of a a wash. The plus point for the Leica is if you need to stop down in low light it can do it, not every shot can take f1:7 DoF. Also not sure how good that lens is at f1:7. What would be nice is a faster lens on the leica for the best of both Worlds. No doubt if Leica thought they could make a lens faster with the quality, size and weight consideration a camera like this needs they would of done so. Kevin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackart Posted December 23, 2009 Share #97 Posted December 23, 2009 I was also not impressed with the slowness of X1. Image quality is excellent, that's clear. Leica should do some quick fixes now. I really don't believe that the slowness is possible to eliminate optimizing firmware only. So, I try to prioritize: 1. Faster processor (to improve overall speed, specially focusing speed and playback speed) 2. Better LCD (should be easy switch) 3. Firmware update (to get live histogram and precise manual focus) These fixes are not related to physical design (except LCD) and should be doable in forseeable future. I'm going to wait before I swipe my card. Jaak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted December 23, 2009 Share #98 Posted December 23, 2009 So, I try to prioritize: 1. Faster processor (to improve overall speed, specially focusing speed and playback speed) 2. Better LCD (should be easy switch) 3. Firmware update (to get live histogram and precise manual focus) These fixes are not related to physical design (except LCD) and should be doable in forseeable future. 2 of these are assuming they haven't started production yet no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted December 23, 2009 Share #99 Posted December 23, 2009 Nice expensive toy for mama to keep in the car for soccer games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted December 24, 2009 Share #100 Posted December 24, 2009 Nice expensive toy for mama to keep in the car for soccer games. Hmmm, never thought about myself as a soccer mom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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