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[barjohn]

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John, every Leica lens (pretty much) justifies its premium pricing--and the lenses (along with design simplicity) are truly why you use Leica products.

 

I can't disagree with this statement in general; however, at these prices one should get near perfection and I have seen too many posts of users having new lenses that they have had to send back on long vacations to Solms for alignment or other issues.

 

 

I have no doubt that the combo of a decent (Sony) sensor and 24 Elmarit ASPH will make many people very happy with the X1. It's early days--the JPEG engine will get sorted and serious users will shoot RAW anyway.

 

I'm glad you have no doubts but the images I have seen so far (granted very limited) have not been fantastic in terms of IQ and especially at high ISO. Certainly not $2,000 fantastic.

 

But it's not going to be for everyone, surely, and probably not for you--we get that. But that comes down to knowing what you want to do photographically first, then buy the camera that suits. That's not going to be a Leica for everyone.

 

I completely agree and it is what I do for myself as I'm sure it is what you do for yourself.

 

And truth to tell, for your needs, from your posts over the last couple of years, I think a Leica is something close to a combination of too much work and optical overkill at the same time.

 

Since you have no idea of what I consider too much work or what I would consider optical overkill this statement makes no sense. I wouldn't make it about you and I would appreciate your not making it about me. I try to keep from attacking people personally but I am fully capable and entitled to speak my opinion on equipment and what I see that equipment produce or how it functions. It may be different than your perception and that is ok with me.

 

And while you're making wild statements, what exactly are the flaws of the M9 that won't / can't be fixed in firmware? See--when you make statements like that they're just inflammatory and I feel bound to call you on them.

 

The flaws I am referring too can be found in the following threads on the M9 forum:

1. M9 FirmWare Update Suggestions Thread...

2. Rainbow skies....

3. Small line in all pictures - sensor defect?

 

And more issues:

1) The camera will occasionally not record an image and go into a flashing red LED lock-up state. A battery removal resets the camera, and, unfortunately, wipes the image.

 

2) The camera goes into a flashing red LED lock-up state after a sequence of 6 or so shoots. It never completes writing the images to card.

 

I could list many more but I think this is sufficient to illustrate my point. At $7K I expect near perfection. This camera isn't even close. It's IQ, while very good, is not enough to overcome these deficiencies.

 

The statement wasn't made to be inflammatory but merely to state my observation based on the data on this site.

 

 

Let's put it another way: just because you can't use an M9 (or M8 for that matter) without running into trouble doesn't mean others don't get great results from the glass / RF combo--and those results justify the premium price IMO. Nikon has no 24 Elmarit or anything like it IMO (and most definitely not on a smaller camera). They don't have a 50 Lux R or M. They don't have a 19R. They don't have a 35 Lux or anything like an 80R (though there, at least, they have a reasonable 85 1.4 at least).

 

Again, YMMV. But I have to say I honestly don't know why you'd think about buying something with a 24 Elmarit when your Nikons so clearly satisfy you anyway?

 

First, I don't know why you think I am using a Nikon. I own a few Nikon lenses but I don't own a Nikon and haven't for over a year. Second, I never claimed Nikon had equivalent lenses though one could argue that Leica has no equivalent autofocus lenses to Nikons. Kind of irrelevant.

 

Do you even like shooting at a 35mm FOV? Or would you prefer a zoom? A tele?

 

I'm asking because I honestly want to know where you're coming from...

 

I actually do like and use the 35mm to 40mm FOV as my preferred range though there are times (like shooting architecture) that I prefer a much wider FOV as one can only back up so far before hitting a wall or falling out a door. I prefer primes to zooms but I am not adverse to using a zoom from time to time.

 

I hope this answers your questions.

[SiOnara]

In the end most products are imperfect. With any imperfect, creative tool, it's down to the artist, photographer etc to find a work a round, and turn the negative into a positive.

[jsrockit]

In the end most products are imperfect. With any imperfect, creative tool, it's down to the artist, photographer etc to find a work a round, and turn the negative into a positive.

 

Exactly... plus, the X1 is the first of its kind and is a Leica, so you are going to pay a premium.

[barjohn]

Whether they will be the first of "its kind" depends on how you define it. First to announce a small camera with a large APS-C sensor or first to deliver? First to announce a larger the typical P&S sensor in a small package, etc. It appears that Sigma was the first to announce and deliver a small camera with a larger than normal P&S sensor. Olympus and Panasonic were first to announce and deliver 4/3rds sensor in a small package and while Leica has been first to announce an APS-C sensor in a small package it appears that Ricoh will be the first to deliver one.

[AlanJW]

I can't disagree with this statement in general; however, at these prices one should get near perfection and I have seen too many posts of users having new lenses that they have had to send back on long vacations to Solms for alignment or other issues.

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you have no doubts but the images I have seen so far (granted very limited) have not been fantastic in terms of IQ and especially at high ISO. Certainly not $2,000 fantastic.

 

 

 

I completely agree and it is what I do for myself as I'm sure it is what you do for yourself.

 

 

 

Since you have no idea of what I consider too much work or what I would consider optical overkill this statement makes no sense. I wouldn't make it about you and I would appreciate your not making it about me. I try to keep from attacking people personally but I am fully capable and entitled to speak my opinion on equipment and what I see that equipment produce or how it functions. It may be different than your perception and that is ok with me.

 

 

 

The flaws I am referring too can be found in the following threads on the M9 forum:

1. M9 FirmWare Update Suggestions Thread...

2. Rainbow skies....

3. Small line in all pictures - sensor defect?

 

And more issues:

1) The camera will occasionally not record an image and go into a flashing red LED lock-up state. A battery removal resets the camera, and, unfortunately, wipes the image.

 

2) The camera goes into a flashing red LED lock-up state after a sequence of 6 or so shoots. It never completes writing the images to card.

 

I could list many more but I think this is sufficient to illustrate my point. At $7K I expect near perfection. This camera isn't even close. It's IQ, while very good, is not enough to overcome these deficiencies.

 

The statement wasn't made to be inflammatory but merely to state my observation based on the data on this site.

 

 

 

 

First, I don't know why you think I am using a Nikon. I own a few Nikon lenses but I don't own a Nikon and haven't for over a year. Second, I never claimed Nikon had equivalent lenses though one could argue that Leica has no equivalent autofocus lenses to Nikons. Kind of irrelevant.

 

 

 

I actually do like and use the 35mm to 40mm FOV as my preferred range though there are times (like shooting architecture) that I prefer a much wider FOV as one can only back up so far before hitting a wall or falling out a door. I prefer primes to zooms but I am not adverse to using a zoom from time to time.

 

I hope this answers your questions.

 

I looked at your work also, and I have looked at Jamie's as well. His work commands respect, as does his consistent record of helping out others on the forum. I find your work much like the opinions you express ad nauseum, either washed out or muddy or tiresome. Just my opinion, which you have invited both implicitly and explicitly.

[barjohn]

I looked at your work also, and I have looked at Jamie's as well. His work commands respect, as does his consistent record of helping out others on the forum. I find your work much like the opinions you express ad nauseum, either washed out or muddy or tiresome. Just my opinion, which you have invited both implicitly and explicitly.

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but if that is the best you can do in expressing it that is a reflection on the amount of credibility I should give it. In other words zero.

[AlanJW]

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The point is that I don't care what you think.

[Guest stnami]

Wienshie how about showing some images/a link so we can see your photographic cred.....then we can see if you command respect:)

[AlanJW]

Stnami: Okay, I will be happy to post a link tomorrow and bear the brunt of any comments.

[Guest stnami]

Thanks, it is just that a heap post know it all stuff but few backup with images which in a way is understandable as it is a camera forum not a photography forum.

Then again very few here own cameras and don't take photos:rolleyes:....... I presume

[lct]

Must be cool to be a great photographer.

[Guest stnami]

...I wouldn't know but it must be cool hangin with legal beaks

[lct]

Haha you have a point.

[imperator4711]

Hi,

there are similar effekts in two other landscape pictures (number 7 and 8), everytime in the leafs.

[lct]

...there are similar effekts in two other landscape pictures (number 7 and 8), everytime in the leafs.

Ah yes i see what you mean thanks. Reminds me of the "Seurat effect" of my Digilux 1 somewhere. The latter does not bother me much in practice but it would be suprising to retrieve it in the X1 7 years later.

Original files: Leica - Pentax

 

 

[jsrockit]

Whether they will be the first of "its kind" depends on how you define it. First to announce a small camera with a large APS-C sensor or first to deliver? First to announce a larger the typical P&S sensor in a small package, etc. It appears that Sigma was the first to announce and deliver a small camera with a larger than normal P&S sensor. Olympus and Panasonic were first to announce and deliver 4/3rds sensor in a small package and while Leica has been first to announce an APS-C sensor in a small package it appears that Ricoh will be the first to deliver one.

 

First of its kind in that it has a large sensor and has shutter speed and aperture dials like a normal camera...not menus like a consumer device masquerading as a camera.

[barjohn]

No, in that case, the GF1 with a legacy Leica lens is closer in that it has the aperture dial on the lens (where real cameras not toys have it), not on a knob and the focus ring on the lens not on a thumb dial (again like a real camera). You can set the shutter speed via a thumb dial which is closer to a knob for shutter speed than a thumb dial is to a focusing ring as on the X1.

[jsrockit]

No, in that case, the GF1 with a legacy Leica lens is closer in that it has the aperture dial on the lens (where real cameras not toys have it), not on a knob and the focus ring on the lens not on a thumb dial (again like a real camera). You can set the shutter speed via a thumb dial which is closer to a knob for shutter speed than a thumb dial is to a focusing ring as on the X1.

 

I don't care where they are located...as long as they are dedicated. The GF1 got close (only because of an adapter), but the crop factor is too much. There is no real digital if we go by your definition, they are all toys.

[AlanJW]

Thanks, it is just that a heap post know it all stuff but few backup with images which in a way is understandable as it is a camera forum not a photography forum.

Then again very few here own cameras and don't take photos:rolleyes:....... I presume

Stnami (and anyone else interested: I finally got some images posted. Here is a link: Not all taken with Leica. I'm actually quite agnostic when it comes to the camera use. I just happen to prefer Leica now. Thank goodness I do not have to earn my living in photography -- I'm not that good -- but I really enjoy it. All comments welcome.

 

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/weinschela/>

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

 

The flaws I am referring too can be found in the following threads on the M9 forum:

1. M9 FirmWare Update Suggestions Thread...

2. Rainbow skies....

3. Small line in all pictures - sensor defect?

 

And more issues:

1) The camera will occasionally not record an image and go into a flashing red LED lock-up state. A battery removal resets the camera, and, unfortunately, wipes the image.

 

2) The camera goes into a flashing red LED lock-up state after a sequence of 6 or so shoots. It never completes writing the images to card.

 

I could list many more but I think this is sufficient to illustrate my point. At $7K I expect near perfection. This camera isn't even close. It's IQ, while very good, is not enough to overcome these deficiencies.

 

The statement wasn't made to be inflammatory but merely to state my observation based on the data on this site.

 

John--the first three you chose aren't systemic defects. Go to any camera forum and you will see defects! If people based comments on those systems like you do on the X1, no-one would ever buy a camera!

 

The last ones you list (writing to cards) are firmware-fixable or dependent on the memory card--and we will never know for sure the root cause of any individual occurence.

 

Again, go to any camera forum and you will find card issues / IO issues with any digital camera pushing lots of data. Nikon's D3 has an issue with fast CF cards and some of their older AF lenses (lemme tell you that's annoying); Canon just issued firmware to fix the brand-new 7D

 

So give us all a break. I have no doubt whatsoever that Leica will fix all of these defects, either individually, or with firmware updates.

 

See, I wasn't trying to attack you, and I'm sorry you took it that way. As for what you consider too much work, I'm just going back to your 2+ years of posting on the M8 and other Leicas. IIRC, you complained loudly about AWB with the M8 (no-one using RAW cares); you complained about focusing a lot with the M8 without getting anything adjusted (no-one printing much cares); you also complained about JPEG colour (see number 1). That sounds like someone who thinks an RF digital is too much work to me.

 

No insult but if you want(ed) a totally predictable JPEG shooting system the M8 was not for you. Of course you couldn't have known that when you bought the M8, and it's true that there were lots of problems with that camera.

 

But you've already said the M9 isn't for you (ok), and since the X1 will probably be best with a RAW converter as well (though I don't know) it may not be for you either.

 

That doesn't mean it won't be a fine camera and worth the money to other people.

 

First, I don't know why you think I am using a Nikon. I own a few Nikon lenses but I don't own a Nikon and haven't for over a year. Second, I never claimed Nikon had equivalent lenses though one could argue that Leica has no equivalent autofocus lenses to Nikons. Kind of irrelevant.

My apologies--I thought you posted some shots from your "Nikon" a few posts ago. Maybe it was a Canon; doesn't matter. Neither has the lens line up that Leica does right now. You're not still shooting a Leica, are you?

 

And of course the lens line up comparison is not irrelevant in the slightest--I thought you we're talking about image quality, not ease of use! So yes, I own and use AF equipment but only because I have to; with very rare exceptions, the IQ from the AF lenses just isn't all that great, even if it's good enough for a lot of purposes.

 

Thanks for answering the rest of my questions. I still think your general comments on the M9 are inflammatory (or at the very least misguided) and on the X1 just premature.