M8 Back Focus Problems - Is it as common as some say?

[cidereye]

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I'm just about to sell much of my photography gear (Included my beloved R8) as I've finally had enough of hauling around heavy gear I really do not need at my age and health. I mainly shoot film most of the time using Contax G1 & 2 but for those times I need instant gratification I'm looking at buying a used M8/M8.2, especially as I really like the BW images it produces from what I've seen.

 

However ......

 

When in London recently and talking to the guy's at Aperture when I was playing around with an M8.2 I was warned that almost every M8 suffers from this infamous "Back focus" problem and will need to be returned to Leica to be corrected probably sooner rather than later. Cannot most decent camera repairs tech's do this job instead?

 

Reading a lot of problems here and on other forums I'm starting to wonder whether I'm making the right purchase or not so how real is this problem .... i.e. Is it "really" as widespread as the dealer would have me believe?

 

I also guess the lenses I will use on it will have some bearing so here's what I probably will be getting firstly depending on availability and/or funds at time. One of the following:-

 

Zeiss ZM 35mm f/2 - Love the Zeiss glass on my Contax's, seems a great lens.

 

35mm Summicron - if cannot get hold of good used Zeiss.

 

Voigtlander Skopar 35mm f/2.5 pancake M mount - If wife finds out about the camera!

 

 

And finally, how important is 6 bit coding in reference to back focus problems? And is it usually wiser to go for a Leica lens over other glass because the Leica lens data will be stored in the camera?

[fotografr]

Some lenses have back and front focus issues, but I'm not aware of the M8, itself, being the culprit. I've used my M8 for nearly 3 years and have experienced no focus problems of any kind. I've had three lenses coded at the New Jersey facility and it hasn't affected the focusing in any way. By the way, I would highly recommend the 35/2 ASPH. It's a fantastic lens, very sharp, contrasty and flare resistant.

[dpattinson]

My M8 was certainly out of whack. I noticed it when using my 50 lux asph. I cross checked by trying other 50 lux asph on my camera, which also back-focused.

 

In the end I sent both camera and lens in for repair (camera had other issues as well), result is that now that lens focuses fine, and pretty much any other lens I pick up also focuses fine on my M8.

 

So, although there may have been some issue with my lens as well. I'm quite certain that my camera was not correctly set up in the first place.

 

It's not an insurmountable problem, Leica fixed my camera in warranty, and there are certainly cameras that have not had this problem. You should just test the one you are buying with your lenses and see for yourself.

[cidereye]

Thanks for your quick reply, managed to find one of the main threads I've been reading on back focus problems with the camera itself:- http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/13933-new-backfocus-thread-solution.html

[cidereye]

 

It's not an insurmountable problem, Leica fixed my camera in warranty, and there are certainly cameras that have not had this problem. You should just test the one you are buying with your lenses and see for yourself.

 

Yes, that's the conclusion I was coming too myself I guess when it comes to buying the camera but I suppose the ideal situation is to find the right camera and the right lens at the same dealer which is the problem. Or do you think it would be safe to buy my M glass first (as I own none right now) and then visit dealer?

 

Going by Erwin Puts tests of the Zeiss ZM glass design when used on the M8/8.2 I get the impression there shouldn't be much of a problem focus wise.

[ArtZ]

Thanks for your quick reply, managed to find one of the main threads I've been reading on back focus problems with the camera itself:- http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/13933-new-backfocus-thread-solution.html

 

I wouldn't do it (again)! Sent your (future) M8 and lenses to Leica for inspection.

 

In most cases it's a combination of M8 and lenses (that need to adjusted for the M8). If you just play with the wheel, you will probably find that some lenses are in focus and some are not but you cannot get them ALL in focus.

 

Besides, you have to deal also with intermediate focus (playing with the wheel, you can set infinite focus only). So, even if you manage to set infinite focus properly to all your lenses, you may experience that subjets at intermediate distances are out of focus.

 

Sometimes, even Leica, has problems to set focus properly. I had to send some of my lenses (and bodies) twice to get them right. Now, they're just perfect.

 

My two cents, forget the wheel and ask Leica to do that for you!

 

Best regards

 

PS: Welcome to the forum

.

[dpattinson]

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Yes, that's the conclusion I was coming too myself I guess when it comes to buying the camera but I suppose the ideal situation is to find the right camera and the right lens at the same dealer which is the problem. Or do you think it would be safe to buy my M glass first (as I own none right now) and then visit dealer?

 

Going by Erwin Puts tests of the Zeiss ZM glass design when used on the M8/8.2 I get the impression there shouldn't be much of a problem focus wise.

 

Test the camera with whatever lenses are available in the shop. Faster and 50 or longer makes it easier to spot issues. In Aperture I use the beatles poster that's on the back of the display case

 

If you find a nice 35 Summicron, I'd probably take the punt on it if it's from somewhere that gives you a guarantee. It would probably be more prudent to get the body first and test on that though. If they have a M8/8.2 in stock you can try it and other lenses and see if the body generally focuses correctly or not.

 

If the body is in warranty, then getting it fixed would be free anyway.

[JHAG]

I went another path, because I have several lenses, of several creed,

all back- of frontfocussing.

Leica would have fixed my M8, but not the 5 lenses which are not under

warranty anymore.

So I went for a third party, DAG, who fixed the whole set (M8 + 5 lenses)

which proved less costly than Leica's solution — and the whole set has

been fixed and returned to me in one week.

I must admit this is one of the hindrances I want to see cleared up

before I'll buy an M9. Apparently, no one complained so far about that

same problem with that camera.

[Guest mc_k]

...I was warned that almost every M8 suffers from this infamous "Back focus" problem and will need to be returned to Leica to be corrected probably sooner rather than later....

 

no I think most returns are driven by the forum, not quality control. Chances are good you will like the camera.

[jaapv]

Yes, that's the conclusion I was coming too myself I guess when it comes to buying the camera but I suppose the ideal situation is to find the right camera and the right lens at the same dealer which is the problem. Or do you think it would be safe to buy my M glass first (as I own none right now) and then visit dealer?

 

Going by Erwin Puts tests of the Zeiss ZM glass design when used on the M8/8.2 I get the impression there shouldn't be much of a problem focus wise.

Trying to match lenses to bodies is pointless. They simply should be within tolerance both - and most are, at least in the real world. If you read 100 complaints here, it is reasonable to suppose that there are tens of thousands minus 100 out there that don't have any problem whatever. And should you be so unlucky, any qualified camera workshop can help you out - quickly and cheaply. There is no reliable way of testing focus over a shop counter anyway.

[ptarmigan]

Have to say I've been wondering if I have a slight issue with my 75 cron AA and back focus. I've had 3 images now where the point of sharp focus seems to be one to two inches behind where I thought I had focussed - for example in two portraits taken at close quarter with the face on an angle. The farthest away eye in both case is sharp but the nose and nearer eye unsharp. I had initially thought it my miss-focus but now I am unsure.

 

Can this phenomenon occur only at specific focusing distances? I am also getting phenomenally sharp images also, so it may be me.

 

I did have a back focus issue with my D2x when new and that was replaced under warranty.

[JHAG]

Generally more at close range, at least for my case.

All my 5 lenses were perfect at infinity, all were off at close range.

Focus shift cancelled problem (more or less) when stopping down (from

f 4 or f 5.6 on).

[dpattinson]

Have to say I've been wondering if I have a slight issue with my 75 cron AA and back focus. I've had 3 images now where the point of sharp focus seems to be one to two inches behind where I thought I had focussed - for example in two portraits taken at close quarter with the face on an angle. The farthest away eye in both case is sharp but the nose and nearer eye unsharp. I had initially thought it my miss-focus but now I am unsure.

 

Can this phenomenon occur at only at specific focusing distances? I am also getting phenomenally sharp images also, so it may be me.

 

I did have a back focus issue with my D2x when new and that was replaced under warranty.

 

Put it on a tripod at f2, and try focusing on a sheet of newsprint on a wall at about 45deg. You will pretty quickly see if there is a problem. My 50 lux was about 5cm out at portrait distance on the M8 - which would be a similar distance.

 

In my case I think it was a combination of camera and lens, as other lenses were also out on the camera.

[Indecisive]

What is back focus problem?

 

How do you distinguish that from user error?

[JHAG]

What is back focus problem?

 

How do you distinguish that from user error?

 

Well, when shooting a series of portraits and focus full open consistently on the eyes and get as a result soft eyelashes, soft irises and a cheek stunningly sharp, you'll admit, if it would be consistent user error, that you'd better be do gardening, ironing or sewing, all noble tasks, mind you…

[Islandmike]

I purchased a new M8, which was delivered just under two weeks ago, together with a Summarit 35/2.5. To add as a supplement to a Nikon outfit.

 

It was back focusing by about 20% - i.e.20cms to the metre distance.

 

My dealer, Wilkinson Cameras, who I have known for many years, sent me another Summarit to compare and replace with if satisfied - it was certainly accurate to within 2 cms at a metre (front focusing) and I'm very pleased with it. Super dealer service!

 

So certainly not a fault of the M8 body - maybe shop in person if you can and check your lens on he spot.

 

Just now getting to grips with the camera, as it's 30 odd years since I was last a regular Leica user. So far so good and delighted with the whole package - wonderful to have straight lines in images that are just that - straight - and to have results that look like real film photos.

 

What I really need now is some decent light.

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[DOUG66]

I have had this back focusing problem with a 50mm Summicron on an M8. Two other lenses 35mm ASPH Summicron and 28mm ASPH Elmarit did show a problem and focused perfectly. I concluded it was a problem with the Summicron which I purchased new with an M6 in 1993. The 50mm Summicron was manufactured in Canada. I sent the lens to Malcom Taylor for codeing and a service and he reported that there was 40 microns play in the mount, which I considered was probably the causeof the focusing problem. When the lens was returned ( beautifully milled coding and optics like new) I retested it and found that it was still back focusing by about 20mm at 1 meter. After further very helpfull discussion with Malcom Taylor I decided to adjust the lens myself. There is a shim collar on the lens mount. It is 34mm OD and 32.8mm ID and about 2.35mm deep. I made a number of collars which were 0.05 and 0.1 mm thicker out of bronze and tested them. this enabled me to guage the correct depth required. The collars can be adjusted by lapping with 600 or 800 fine emery paper on a glass plate. I assembled the lens with the correct depth collar and it is focusing perfectly. The f number spot is now slightly to the right but this is not a big problem. I tested the lenses on a specially designed chart which I made up. If you want a copy of the chart and instructions on using it e-mail me at reidcrabtree@eircom net.

Regards.

[Guest mc_k]

What is back focus problem?

 

How do you distinguish that from user error?

 

back focus = plane of best focus ends up to the rear of what you focused on...

 

Could be a camera or lens in need of calibration, or ould be caused by user error including camera movement, eye not centered in viewfinder, poor vision...

[Indecisive]

back focus = plane of best focus ends up to the rear of what you focused on...

 

Could be a camera or lens in need of calibration, or ould be caused by user error including camera movement, eye not centered in viewfinder, poor vision...

 

 

Thanks for explaining!

 

I ask because I have an old 50 Summicron that I find harder to focus correctly than my modern 75 summicron.

 

I was testing a bit last night and I think it is mostly down to my own abilities

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[cidereye]

I have had this back focusing problem with a 50mm Summicron on an M8. Two other lenses 35mm ASPH Summicron and 28mm ASPH Elmarit did show a problem and focused perfectly. I concluded it was a problem with the Summicron which I purchased new with an M6 in 1993. The 50mm Summicron was manufactured in Canada. I sent the lens to Malcom Taylor for codeing and a service and he reported that there was 40 microns play in the mount, which I considered was probably the causeof the focusing problem. When the lens was returned ( beautifully milled coding and optics like new) I retested it and found that it was still back focusing by about 20mm at 1 meter. After further very helpfull discussion with Malcom Taylor I decided to adjust the lens myself. There is a shim collar on the lens mount. It is 34mm OD and 32.8mm ID and about 2.35mm deep. I made a number of collars which were 0.05 and 0.1 mm thicker out of bronze and tested them. this enabled me to guage the correct depth required. The collars can be adjusted by lapping with 600 or 800 fine emery paper on a glass plate. I assembled the lens with the correct depth collar and it is focusing perfectly. The f number spot is now slightly to the right but this is not a big problem. I tested the lenses on a specially designed chart which I made up. If you want a copy of the chart and instructions on using it e-mail me at reidcrabtree@eircom net.

Regards.

 

Thanks to *ALL* on this thread for your help and advice, I really do appreciate it! But Doug - BIG thanks to you most of all for my situation because I phoned Malcolm Taylor up this morning to ask his thoughts on the matter and I really am so glad I did.

 

Two minutes into our telephone conversation one thing certainly became clear above all else, this man is a Leica Guru beyond any doubt and a master craftsman and engineer who has studied all things photographic, especially rangefinder cameras, for a lifetime. What he told me regarding tolerances, how cameras/lenses were tested for focus issues, how as opposed to film which is "always" curved when loaded in a camera (as are the elements of any lens, obviously) and that digital sensors are flat compared to the curved lens elements just made so much plain, common sense in minutes and I am far, far from being a technical sort of man.

 

He told me many, many things in our fascinating 15 minute conversation but his key thought and belief from decades of work on Leica RF's was that it is imperative with both the M8/M9 to use bit coded lenses and that Leica didn't do anything without great study & thought. He can engineer bit coding into any lens whether Leica or not (i.e. Both Zeiss & Voigtlander too) and can sort out any back focus problems whether the issue is with the body, the lens or both and has a set-up for testing this problem in his workshop. Lens bit coding starts at £50 per lens which has to surely be a bargain no? He's only 80 miles up the road and a pleasant country drive from me too which is even better and I shall most certainly be availing myself of his services when I need any work done and will get my lenses bit coded by him.