M9 problem

[barjohn]

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Since when--when?--do you know what DSPs Leica is using in the M9? Why would you strongly suspect a hardware failure when you 1) don't have the camera and 2) don't have any real knowledge? What facts do you know about them using M8 parts?

 

I don't claim to have direct knowledge to support that above statement; however, logical deduction can be used based on some known facts such as the time it takes to write its files in comparison to the M8, the use of the same basic sensor (just larger with a better IR filter) and many other similarities. However, you are free to choose to believe whatever you want and if you think they will fix the slow performance shortly with some software tweaks go ahead and believe it. I think that until they take the electronics from the S2 and build an M10 they won't change in any significant way.

 

P.S. I don't have an M9, I don't need to waste my money. When they show some real innovative out of the box thinking I might buy what ever it turns out to be even at their outrageous prices. It must represent value for dollars.

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[chris_tribble]

OK, I don't work as a photojournalist - my work is documentary for clients - so I don't have the same rough and tumble as Noah maybe - though I do get to some remote and inhospitable places. However, I've had mine since 9/9 and after around 2000 images :

 

• I haven't had to do a re-set
  
• I don't have a problem with pre-views (though I don't chimp much
  
• I don't have a problem with write times (but I mainly shoot compressed DNG - because I'm happy with it)
  

I agree that the format time is silly - this really should be speeded up, and it was daft of Leica to release the camera without a providing a properly working calibration profile to use in the default image editing program - Lightroom. But the number of gripes I have compared with the M8 are small. I used the M8 because it was the only act in town. I've now sold my M8u and M8.2, have one M9 and waiting for my second. I don't feel that I'm being treated as a beta tester. I also don't want to denigrate the work that was done by those who were doing that job - I know from talking to one of them that the camera is better as a result of their work.

 

Again - as I've said before - just my 2c...

[noah_addis]

I'm number one on my dealers list for an M9 but am having some reservations about going for it. Nice to see the $ in my bank account and may just wait. Is the image quality that much better thantheM8?

 

See, that's the problem. In my opinion, the answer is a resounding YES. The image quality is much better than the M8, which in my opinion was already extremely good.

 

EarlBurrellPhoto--I have no euphoria believe me (see my previous posts) and it's not a new toy, it's a new tool. You'll need to do tests for yourself, make prints, etc. I can tell you all day about my opinions and I can show you 100 percent crops but they don't mean anything. You need to make prints or tone for the web or do whatever you do with your photographs and see for yourself. If you make 8x10in. prints and show work online, then the difference will be small.

 

In my opinion, though, there is a clear difference in resolution. The extra pixels seem to really make a difference in prints. More importantly, the added resolution and larger sensor, to my eyes, make the images look more three-dimensional with better microcontrast.

 

Not to get into the minefield of discussing depth of field and focus accuracy on different size sensors, but there is a difference. I'm sure the maths experts will chime in and say why I'm wrong in some way, but suffice it to say that with the full-frame M9 sensor your lenses will behave like they did on film. Same goes with shooting at slow shutter speeds--I often had more blur than expected with the M8 but with the M9 it's like film. For a given angle of view (say a 28mm on M9 vs 21mm on M8, you'll have less depth of field, but focusing seems easier and more accurate somehow. I don't know why, I just know that I've had very few out-of-focus frames with the M9 so far, and I've been shooting in the same manner I did with the M8.

 

When converted to B&W, the files seem to have a richer tonality and more fine detail. Most importantly, and this is partially due to the fact that I don't need an UV/IR filter (though I am using a B+W MRC UV filter), I can shoot into light sources without strange flare.

 

The camera seems to be able to hold highlight detail better, and when I do have a blown-out part of a frame, it's more pleasing and less harsh than the M8 or other digital cameras I've used. For the record, I noticed the same effect when I went from a 1dMKII to a 5D, so the larger sensor might help in some way.

 

I'm shooting uncompressed DNG. I haven't had enough time to test for myself to see if it offers a real advantage but I'll going to err on the side of quality until I do those tests. My work in Brazil this week is important and I plan to make large prints. While I know the compression may not offer a real advantage, it can't hurt when quality is important.

 

As an update, I shot today on DNG only. The camera seemed much more responsive and while I miss the B&W previews, I think it's the way to go for now. I had no glitches, no problems whatsoever. I should also mention that despite my problems with the user profiles, the camera has not locked up or needed to be reset. In the past three days I've shot around 1700 photographs.

 

It seems like the only real problems with my camera are the user profiles, which are less important if I'm shooting DNG only. The only other wrinkle is that I really like the B&W preview image on the screen and I'd like a monochrome display option when shooting DNG only.

[bradhusick]

I think that until they take the electronics from the S2 and build an M10 they won't change in any significant way.

 

John, you don't own an M9 and you certainly don't own an S2, so this opinion is based on no facts whatsoever. I come here looking for fact-based information. Perhaps another forum would be more to your liking.

[noah_addis]

...I also don't want to denigrate the work that was done by those who were doing that job - I know from talking to one of them that the camera is better as a result of their work. ...

 

By the way I didn't mean to either, I just find it a bit disconcerting to have issues with a brand new camera. I've never had such problems with other cameras, including my M8s though as I said I was late to that party:D

 

I mostly posted my issues here to see if they are isolated incidents or if others are having the same issues.

 

Can some of you other M9 users try to replicate the glitch I found...just switch the camera to any user profile other than #1 (or the first one if you've named them). Then try to switch back to user profile #1 and see if it accepts your selection. Mine never does on the first try, I need to do it twice. I can talk to the folks at Leica once I get home of course, but I'm trying to find out if my camera has a problem or if it is in all M9s.

[chris_tribble]

Can some of you other M9 users try to replicate the glitch I found...just switch the camera to any user profile other than #1 (or the first one if you've named them). Then try to switch back to user profile #1 and see if it accepts your selection. Mine never does on the first try, I need to do it twice. I can talk to the folks at Leica once I get home of course, but I'm trying to find out if my camera has a problem or if it is in all M9s.

 

Noah - just tried this and can't replicate. My Profile #1 is ISU 160 uncompressed. P#2 is ISO 400 compressed / P#3 ISO 800 compressed / P#4 ISO 1600 compressed. Not very exciting but it suits me.

 

I can switch back and forth - no problem. The only time I've had an issue with this aspect of the menu is when I accidently hit "Snapshot profile" and get involved with a silly dialog... I'd really like to have the option to disable this!

 

BTW - re B&W preview as a many option - I'd find this helpful. However - glad that you've found the camera more response shooting DNG only. This is precisely my experience. My shooting rate's not as high as yours, but in DNG only the M9 is beautifully quick footed, precise and responsive. It's as fluent a shooting experience as working with my Canons.

 

Thanks for the posting BTW - it's important to have the experience of people who are using the camera - I'm less persuaded by the postings from those who haven't got the M9 and who speculate about how flawed it might be..

[Jamie Roberts]

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I don't claim to have direct knowledge to support that above statement{snipped}

 

P.S. I don't have an M9, I don't need to waste my money. When they show some real innovative out of the box thinking I might buy what ever it turns out to be even at their outrageous prices. It must represent value for dollars.

 

Well, your bias is completely clear, anyway. And your selective memory. too: you *did* have an M8 when it wrote to cards slower than molasses in January, right? Or are you forgetting that? Or when formatting speed was fixed in firmware?

 

And you keep making stuff up that is ludicrous-- the M9 sensor being "the same" as the M8s?! LOL! So why is there no green streak? Full frame? Different colours? Yes, it's a CCD by Kodak (thank heavens!) at the same pixel density. Same sensor? Nope.

 

In any case, my "speculation" about M9 write-times being able to be fixed in firmware are at least based on two salient facts and not the pure conjecture you're throwing around. Yes, one reason for slow performance is hardware, however, experience would say:

 

1) the m8 experience should be your guide (which you've forgotten or didn't have time to think about or something) and

2) the fact that right now, the engineering report from Leica on SD cards says that faster write-time cards like the Sandisk Extreme 3 are actually *slower* than the Sandisk Ultra 2s, which are in fact much slower cards.

 

That doesn't sound like a hardware limitation to me--are you saying the hardware is so poor it can't write to faster cards as fast as it can slower cards? LOL!! That's some funky hardware, John, logically speaking.

 

Anyway, logically, it sounds like Leica got a working camera out the door and will optimize the software later, which is what they've done for the DMR and the M8.

 

Now, would I have liked to have seen a bigger and better buffer in the M9? I guess so, but until I see a couple of firmware revisions I'll hold off on my final opinion.

 

Anyway, you didn't like your M8 much, so I'm sure an M9 won't be for you anyway. But thanks for letting us know how you feel.

[chris_tribble]

Hi Jamie - hope you're feeling better now that's off your chest () - but I do know how you feel!

[jonoslack]

Hi Jamie

I hope you're well

Anyway, logically, it sounds like Leica got a working camera out the door and will optimize the software later, which is what they've done for the DMR and the M8.

 

I'm sure you're quite right - the difference between this and the M8 is that it is fundamentally 'all there' straight away - so that it's not glaring issues to be addressed, but some tweaks and improvements (not to suggest that these things aren't important, just that they aren't show stoppers).

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

I'm sure you're quite right - the difference between this and the M8 is that it is fundamentally 'all there' straight away - so that it's not glaring issues to be addressed, but some tweaks and improvements (not to suggest that these things aren't important, just that they aren't show stoppers).

 

Well. I hope I am anyway, Jono (and I hope you're doing well too!). And I didn't mean to be so hard on John, either--the sheer negativity gets to me some days (and today I didn't have such a good day myself. Gotta stop posting on those days )

 

Anyway, I do think the M9, as you say, seems to be "all there" and only needs some tweaking. I don't think Leica is finished with the performance of the camera, which is barely a couple months out the door at this point!

 

So, fingers crossed! And maybe by the time I can get an M9 the write time / preview time issues will be done

 

(@ Chris--thanks... sometimes I know I should just hit "delete" instead of "send"... but oh well. It's only the Internet )

[Stevez4]

Charles, once you put a 35 1.4 on an M9 and experience the full frame instead of the 28 sweet spot. Well that puts the M9 back as a photojournalists camera.

Go to a dealer and try it. Try a 50 1.4 I think you'll buy an M9 immediately.

[charlesphoto99]

Charles, once you put a 35 1.4 on an M9 and experience the full frame instead of the 28 sweet spot. Well that puts the M9 back as a photojournalists camera.

Go to a dealer and try it. Try a 50 1.4 I think you'll buy an M9 immediately.

 

Yeah, I'm going for it once my number comes up. Just had a few moments of doubt. Nice to hear Noah and Chris check in.

 

I shot some samples on 9/9/09 and was duly impressed. Looking forward to using my 35 Lux again as it is meant to be. And definitely my 24. My Zeiss 18 and 21 pre-asph will most likely go on the chopping block. Rarely shoot wider than 24.

 

CP

[Fotomiguel]

I like to set the autoreview in "off". I normally don't need to review every shot. when I need to review one, I only have to press "play" and the review come straight away. With my M8 works better and my batteries last much more. Should be the same for the M9.

[chrism]

I've noticed another issue--if I try to select user profile #1 it never works the first time. If I'm on a different profile and I choose #1, when I go back to the set menu it says "-". If I select #1 again then it works. Strangely, I can pick any of the other user profiles and it works the first time. I really only have three profiles I use, so I've set them to 2-4 and I leave #1 unused. This is repeatable and happens every time I try it.

 

I'va had this happen, but I suspect I wasn't pressing the Set button firmly enough rather than anything else.

 

Chris

[noah_addis]

I'va had this happen, but I suspect I wasn't pressing the Set button firmly enough rather than anything else.

 

Chris

 

Not sure if I understand. You either push the set button or you don't. If you don't, then you'll still be in the user profile submenu until you do push it.

 

In any event, I've discovered something more strange and probably more confusing so bear with me...

 

It seems that I can now set user profile 1 on the first try. However, what I can't do is select any user profile where the profile is DNG+JPEG with the JPEG set to black and white.

 

This is totally weird I know but this is what I've found:

 

User profile set to DNG only : can select on first try

User profile set to DNG + JPEG with saturation set to standard : can select on first try

User profile set to DNG + JPEG with saturation set to B&W : can NOT select on first try but I can select if I do it twice in a row.

 

I realize that when you change settings AFTER selecting a user profile then the profile no longer appears in the menu, instead you get a - .

 

Very strange, but not so much of an issue since I've been shooting DNG only anyway.

[rantingART]

Like a kid at Christmas I received my M9 today.

 

To quote Liz Plair since I don't have "sh*@loads of money" and to spend $7K on a camera, and about the same money on optics it seems ridiculous that I'm having issues with how good the images are. I come from a 5D Mark II and before that I shot a M6 for twenty years ... so I'm not virginal material. And I have to say that my first day of shooting left me totally disappointed.

 

The whole delay thing to see your image is annoying ... and the pixelated jump to viewing it bigger is also annoying. Then dishing them through Lightroom and blowing them up ... then comparing to what has gone before ... I just said to myself ... OK $14K and I have to look at images that are close to my G10?

 

Please! Christian are you listening?

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

Then dishing them through Lightroom and blowing them up ... then comparing to what has gone before ... I just said to myself ... OK $14K and I have to look at images that are close to my G10? (snipped}

 

Ranting, or Art:

 

Give yourself time to get used to the camera. One day is hardly enough to master what the M9 has to offer, especially if you're already coming from a rangefinder.

 

And if your images are close to a G10, you have to ask yourself what is the limiting factor here? Not the sensor, and not the optics (absolutely not). So maybe you should rethink your shooting style and go after something different... after you give the camera some time. For example, try shooting something with backlight (that would kill the G10 right there).

 

What lenses are you using BTW?

 

Now, as to the speed of things, give it a firmware release or two. Or don't buy the first one off the boat That goes for all manufacturers of all pro cameras: they tend to release first and fix later--Leica is no exception.

[jonoslack]

 

This is totally weird I know but this is what I've found:

 

User profile set to DNG only : can select on first try

User profile set to DNG + JPEG with saturation set to standard : can select on first try

User profile set to DNG + JPEG with saturation set to B&W : can NOT select on first try but I can select if I do it twice in a row.

 

I realize that when you change settings AFTER selecting a user profile then the profile no longer appears in the menu, instead you get a - .

 

Very strange, but not so much of an issue since I've been shooting DNG only anyway.

HI Noah

Gotit - definitely a bug there - nothing wrong with your camera.

Not just Black and white - any of the three jpg settings will do the same thing, and not just DNG+jpg (jpg alone will do it).

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[jaapv]

I have been shooting the m9 every single day for 3+ weeks now and have not had any issues besides the slow zoom on the preview. I can shoot one image after another, I can delete images quickly, and I have no issue with the write times, and I shoot RAW & JPEG. I have charged my battery twice in 3 weeks and have just not had any problems as far as the operation of the camera. I discovered my RF may be ever so slightly out of adjustment but that is fixable. My user profiles work fine.

 

The only thing that frustrates me is the ultra slow format time. I use an 8GB Extreme III card. If I were a beta tester I would have reported no issues. Only the slow preview that can freeze the camera if you are trying to zoom in on it while the camera is writing to the card, and the slow format.

 

I would say that both of these will be fixed in firmware.

+1 for everything you say, except it is nearly six weeks and seven battery changes

[rantingART]

So Jamie your condescending tone takes me back. Leica had been a part of my shooting since 1983. I know what the hell I'm doing with the camera. And so do other M9 shooters who seem to be having the same problem as me with issues of the camera actually able to focus.

 

See the thread on dpreview : M9 - why aren't you guys mad?: Leica Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

 

My reference to the G10 was all focus related. Now after doing some reading I find that straight out of the box other M9 users are having issues with either the rangefinder being off or the math isn't right ... thus lenses are back focusing, or as some are thinking it's an issue with the math and the fact that the camera is not reading the lens correctly. Which negates using the lens wide open ... which is why we buy Leica in the first place.

 

Lenses I'm using are the B&B ... 35 Cron Asph and 28 Cron Asph ... so you can take that out of the mix.

 

Really ... wait for firmware updates? I don't think so. I played with a M8 when they first came out and I didn't buy then. Then friends Frank Jackson and Chris Weeks got me all hot and bothered for the M9 because they were shooting with the beta and the images were great. But after playing with this and doing tests ... it's not there, and I'm not sure it will be anytime soon.