cirke Posted November 2, 2009 Share #81 Posted November 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) it can change their mind , i have signed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 2, 2009 Posted November 2, 2009 Hi cirke, Take a look here Petition for a Leica R10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest BigSplash Posted November 2, 2009 Share #82 Posted November 2, 2009 I have often wanted a R camera and hell now I can get up to 60% off a new one from SH Photo, and its even cheaper used. ...and a digital module is now about £1200 used but has an ever reducing lower specification than a current M9. So the idea here is to ask Leica to: Spend a few million €uros to develop a R10, Invest in the tooling, and test jigs etc Fund the marketing costs to promote a R10 that is technologically (at 35mm sensor size) behind Canon and Nikon competition plus will be much more expensive as the volumes will be lower. Sounds like a winner to me. I suggest that you should include in the petition an R mount Noctilux, and some other exotic lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandokan Posted November 2, 2009 Share #83 Posted November 2, 2009 An R10 would be nice .... but for €10K for it, I would rather spend the extra on the S2. As for Leica's development costs for an R10. Bear in mind that they (like any company) have limited resources, and developing the R10 would mean pulling people off the S2 or X1 or M9 development/production/research. I work for a scientific company that makes billions in profits, but we have very stringent rules about what future products get research funding, simply because the additional people required to discover and develop the products are in short supply. If the R10 doesnt happen - I don't mind. My R9/DMR are good enough for me for now and if/when they die, either I will take my glass to something that it can fit or sell it and move on. As for the autofocus/manual focus discussion: Autofocus is king - end of story. You can manually focus any lens and apart from macro work, I dont think anybody does. I defy anyone to get sharply focused pictures with manual focus of children playing and running around or at the fair ground. With a 35mm lens and zone focus it is possible, but not with anything longer than a 50mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 2, 2009 Share #84 Posted November 2, 2009 Some of the suggestion here would see Leica bankrupt within 6 months remember there wasn't a huge queue, beating down dealers' doors when the DMR was on sale. I bought mine, new in box, as a remaindered item. Now suddenly, there are 10,000s, baying for them. There just aren't. If they were, they'd still be £2000 like they were last year. Given that Hasleblad aren't going to make any more, yet probably own the rights, the whole idea is just a non starter. As I am sure you know, really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanyr Posted November 2, 2009 Share #85 Posted November 2, 2009 I think Leica can build an R10 using existing parts. Here's a suggestion. The M9's digital electronics seem to be modular and separate from the camera's functions. Use the Leica S2's body shell since its designed for digital and integrate this to the M9's shutter and digital sensor and electronics with some new custom electronics. The S2's body should have alot of space for the custom electronics. They can reuse parts from the Leica R9 such as the viewfinder prism, mount and mirror box. Therefore all they need is some custom electronics to make the R10's camera section talk to the M9's shutter and digital electronics. Note that the Leica M9's shutter is based on the R9's. If the camera is similar in price to the M9 it would be very interesting don't you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 2, 2009 Share #86 Posted November 2, 2009 I'm guessing you don't have a background in engineering - electronic or optical. Neither do I, but I can see some obvious problems with what you propose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted November 2, 2009 Share #87 Posted November 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think Leica can build an R10 using existing parts. Here's a suggestion. The M9's digital electronics seem to be modular and separate from the camera's functions. Use the Leica S2's body shell since its designed for digital and integrate this to the M9's shutter and digital sensor and electronics with some new custom electronics. The S2's body should have alot of space for the custom electronics. They can reuse parts from the Leica R9 such as the viewfinder prism, mount and mirror box. Therefore all they need is some custom electronics to make the R10's camera section talk to the M9's shutter and digital electronics. Note that the Leica M9's shutter is based on the R9's. If the camera is similar in price to the M9 it would be very interesting don't you think? Sounds very easy...I guess if it was so easy Leica would do it. They could also throw away the O rings to save on cost! The strategic and business realities are unreal and if Leica has ambitions to reenter the dslr market this is not the way. This thread in my opinion never was serious....in my opinion Leica cannot go back into the dSLR market until it has: Established itself as a serious player in the high end digital platform market in terms of technology, and volumes shipped into this niche.(M9 and S2) Has become very profitable and able to sustain a large ongoing R&D budget Has moved from "hand built by technicians" to "medium scale volume production" Has achieved a complete high end product offer "profiles for M9 and S2", has addressed all workflow issues with its partners, set up workshops, and boasts an after sales support that is fast to respond, Has delivered firmware fixes for M8 (some bugs remain) and M9 Has addressed various quality issues that we occassionally hear about in the forum. Has a significant accessory program from partners (eg Metz, and Filters supplier, and Billingham etc), and differentiating accessories of its own. If these criteria are met then I guess Leica could attack the Japanese dominated high end market, but NOT with "R" glass .......new lenses would be required, and new technologies will be applicable to a new DSlr that allows Leica to differentiate itself. I guess modern autofocus technology, and LiveView for framing are potential candidates. Otherwise Leica will be coming out with a very expensive camera body , made in small volumes that adds nothing compared to a Canon 5DII and uses old lenses. The only people it may appeal to are those that already have R lenses. ...but many of that community have already adapted their lenses to work on Nikon or Canon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanyr Posted November 2, 2009 Share #88 Posted November 2, 2009 I'm guessing you don't have a background in engineering - electronic or optical. Neither do I, but I can see some obvious problems with what you propose. Yes you're right that it would not be that simple. They would probably have to redo the front and top panel for example. The internal attachments for body shell is not designed for the R9's mirror box and eyepiece too. They could re-use alot of existing components and the S2's design though. Personally, I think Leica will not do it. They want to go to AF for SLRs so why not go for a new mount and if they do why not go for a larger sensor where the market is not as crowded.. There's Sony with Carl Zeiss, Nikon and Canon in the autofocus full frame camera market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguewave Posted November 2, 2009 Share #89 Posted November 2, 2009 Go big RED. Deliver the goods to those loyal R users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
germio Posted November 2, 2009 Share #90 Posted November 2, 2009 If there's no market for six to eight thousand R10s a year at $10,000 a pop, what do you think the market size would be for the $28,000 S2? Leica said they hope to capture a "double digit" percentage of the 10,000 units / year medium format digital market, which means at least one to two thousand S2s. That sounds less realistic to me than 6-8k R10s a year. remember there wasn't a huge queue, beating down dealers' doors when the DMR was on sale. I bought mine, new in box, as a remaindered item. Now suddenly, there are 10,000s, baying for them. There just aren't. If they were, they'd still be £2000 like they were last year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lieberdavid Posted November 3, 2009 Share #91 Posted November 3, 2009 Hi Everyone, I think that the reason there wasn't a big rush to buy the DMR is that a lot of people realized that it was a stop gap product, and they preferred to wait for the full frame R 10 dedicated digital camera. That was my thinking and I suspect that of many others. I think the same could be said for the M8, M9 situation. A lot of people realized the M8 was an interim product until the full frame M9 could be produced and so did not buy the M8. The M9 is out now and it is evidently going to be a winner. I suspect that it will far outsell the M8. The pent up demand for the R 10 was, and I hope still is, considerable. One thing I do not understand is the idea often expressed here that the development cost of an R 10 is going to be considerable. Why so? If the R 10 is designed along the lines of the S2, hasn't most of the development (maybe even nearly all of it) been done already? Cheers! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierovitch Posted November 3, 2009 Share #92 Posted November 3, 2009 This thread seems to be missing the costs involved setting up an imaging sensor. Kodak have pulled off a miracle getting a Full Frame sensor to work on the M9 and the development costs and chip run are not exactly going to generate huge profits. This article from the company who have the in house resources, might enlighten some views on the subject. http://www.usa.canon.com/uploadedimages/FCK/Image/White%20Papers/Canon_CMOS_WP.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 3, 2009 Share #93 Posted November 3, 2009 {snipped} The Australian army got a big order on Nikon D3's, WHY, BECAUSE THEY WANT THE BEST ESPECIALLY IN A ENVIRONMENT THEY OPERATE IN. I have been using my Leica Reflex cameras sinse 1973 and just love them however the facts are The Japanese are the true Digital masters. Cheers. Ah--thanks for that info on Canon and Nikon! 'Cos you know when I think photographic excellence I always think "gee, I wonder what the Australian Army is shooting these days?" I'll pass that info right on to Phase and Hassy, too! PS--got it now--the "heavies" not the "havies" eh? I shoot a D3, and I agree it's a "heavy" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted November 3, 2009 Share #94 Posted November 3, 2009 You wouldn't expect our Army to use the Blads or Phase would you, then I suppose they can always take a coolie to carry the Tripod for them as well. As for these two (Nikon and Canon) In the Photografic world, they are BIG, they dictate the markets, Nikon and Canon probably spend more on their staff tea breaks then all others on their R&D. Have you checked out Canon's lastest Profits $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. In my view, these TWO BIG CAMPANIES are on the front line on any future Digital Technology. And if I go full Digital it's certainly where my money will go,most likely Canon as I can use my Leica lenses on them unlike their maker who has kicked us Leica R users up the KYBER PASS. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelos Viskadourakis Posted November 3, 2009 Share #95 Posted November 3, 2009 You wouldn't expect our Army to use the Blads or Phase would you, then I suppose they can always take a coolie to carry the Tripod for them as well. ..........,most likely Canon as I can use my Leica lenses on them unlike their maker who has kicked us Leica R users up the KYBER PASS.Cheers. I'm almost 100% sure that if were available R10"s Australian Army(just joking) would choose that LEICA.Now lets go back to the Leica R petition. Regarding words about bankruptcy was the case in September 2006 when M8 was announced ,the M photographers contribute all their resources and M system survive. Same thing will happen with R except the financial conditions now are tougher,so price should be of concern. . Again being a trained ex- serviceman i can repeat that the mechanical part of cameras in low volume production is the expensive part, electronics and software not so.So the idea of building on a more than complete production line of R8/R9 basic body structure and parts is the recommended way -at least for now.Of course with Maestro chips and AF in house know how if that gives a better cost control if the cost of Maestro is forbidding other solutions can be engaged and will be welcome from us the photographers. :rolleyes:They call it UNIBODY in car industry. Big hugs to all fellow photographers. PS;looks to me that M8/M9 sells much higher numbers compared to MP & M7 at double the price,so there is profit,isnt it? Same will happen with R solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 3, 2009 Share #96 Posted November 3, 2009 What is this all about? it should be between us R users and Leica, not one R user and another R user. Seriously, I'm afraid that we're not going to see this going anywhere. If the S2 sells like a hot cake, Leica will never be interested in picking up the R10 again, if the S2 flops like a dead fish, they are probably running out cash to do anything else. Let's all pray for world peace and give each other a big hug for our friendship, nothing else is more important. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelos Viskadourakis Posted November 3, 2009 Share #97 Posted November 3, 2009 i sold 4 of my Canons-kept only two-to finance the R10 purchase.Didn't happen this time M9 happen instead-welome to the family. ( like waiting for a girl and having a boy,still the same love in the family) I hope i will still have Canons to sell when R10 will come. My opinion as this thread is a petition for R10 only people that like to have one or more R10's to contribute,we can start another thread with topic "will be easy and wise for Leica to present an R10 model",i thing the arguments against R10 should move to another thread and keep that one with positive thoughts,ideas and suggestions in order to present our actuall needs,if it happens ok if not ok again,no hard feelings. PS :R10 idea is very far and not related to S2 as is a completely different product at a very different price area ,i dont see any resemblance between R10 concept and S2,if they share technology will be nice - they are not sharing the same market- if not nice again,so far none of Leica products/solutions disappointed me,on the contrary,all my money spent on Leica are well spent and give me great joy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelos Viskadourakis Posted November 4, 2009 Share #98 Posted November 4, 2009 no comments from leica booth photokina 2008:) that is the reason i sold my 4 Canons. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/101455-petition-for-a-leica-r10/?do=findComment&comment=1102210'>More sharing options...
bill Posted November 4, 2009 Share #99 Posted November 4, 2009 That looks like complete and utter Photoshop bollocks to me... why would Leica display an R7, discontinued in 1996, in 2008? The English and German "translations" don't make sense let alone match! Oh, and whoever did it didn't take off the reflection of the original text, on the left hand side of the display cabinet... Complete mischievous fabrication. Oh, and posting it here without making it clear that you have lifted it from Leica Rumours is misleading and bad form, in my book. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 4, 2009 Share #100 Posted November 4, 2009 Bill Am 99% certain that they did display an R7, the implication being that the R10 would be nice and compact like the older Rs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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