jerzy Posted October 17, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, recently acquired IIIC S/N 517519. According to PH Hasbroeck IIIC Leitz Eigentum were 517404 - 517436, however S/Ns until 517526 were not assigned. My Leica has S/N out of "unassigned" and does NOT have flash contact like pictured in Hasbroeck. Can anyone shed a light? Is it fake? thx Jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Hi jerzy, Take a look here mysterious black paint IIIC Leitz Eigentum. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
BenMacPhoto Posted October 17, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 17, 2009 Post some photos of it. That could help a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 17, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 17, 2009 There is another historician - author (Filippo Giunta - "Leica screw mount cameras") whowrites that the "Leitz Eigentum" batch of black paint IIIc is from 517395 to 517525; he gives no details about, but quotes Lager too on the topic (probably his volume on Leica cameras... I have only his volume on lenses). We wait for pics of your item... it's a very interesting question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted October 18, 2009 Luigi, you are right. Both Lager and Giunta mention this is their books. How to upload photos? I am new to this Forum. I will post the link to the ordner with 3 photos. jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted October 18, 2009 ...maybe this time it will be better.... [ Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/100509-mysterious-black-paint-iiic-leitz-eigentum/?do=findComment&comment=1079805'>More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted October 18, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 18, 2009 Except for the vulcanite craking the camera is beautiful. Due to scarce chrome availability after the WWII lot of cameras were black paint for factory use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDM Posted October 18, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 18, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The black paint is in very good condition... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share #8 Posted October 18, 2009 well, this is older photo, as I acquired it. Within my "old/new spareparts" I had a IIIC body shell with intact vulcanit, obviously from the same period of time (1951-1952), the structure of vulcanit is the same as on picture. Black paint has only insignificantly signs of usage, two places where you can see brassing. But is it really IIIC Leitz Eigentum? Not documented S/N, no flash socket. Original body shell had the same S/N written in pencil, but again - this is not a proof of originality... jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted October 18, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 18, 2009 well, this is older photo, as I acquired it. Within my "old/new spareparts" I had a IIIC body shell with intact vulcanit, obviously from the same period of time (1951-1952), the structure of vulcanit is the same as on picture. Black paint has only insignificantly signs of usage, two places where you can see brassing. But is it really IIIC Leitz Eigentum? Not documented S/N, no flash socket. Original body shell had the same S/N written in pencil, but again - this is not a proof of originality...jerzy Don't worry about the flash socket : there was no such socket on the original IIIc, and only a few "Leitz Eigentum" were upgraded as "IIIf prototypes". This was confirmed to me by Leitz when I investigated in the late 70s about the black IIIc nº 509174 I had in my "Fontenelle Collection" (a model returned because the chrome had peeled off, and which was painted at the client's request). Yours is certainly genuine, and a very nice and rare item. Congratulations! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share #10 Posted October 18, 2009 Thx Pecole. Any idea how to get copy of Leica record showing S/N, date of production for this one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 18, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 18, 2009 I think that the numbering of the "Eigentum" batch was given to the above authors by Leica factory records : I think this is a so special model that could be worth to send it to Solms for an expertise to be reassured about its originalty: as you say, isn't impossible to fake such an item : was it bought from one of the reknown dealers ? (I don't want to know who is it... but the 8-10 reputable dealers well known to collectors are uneven to put fakes for sale: they declare it clearly, in case). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted October 19, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 19, 2009 Thx Pecole. Any idea how to get copy of Leica record showing S/N, date of production for this one? Some years ago (!), I used to regularly visit the Leitz Museum at Wetzlar to investigate in the original archives: I had been introduced there by Herr Attila von Gyimes, the Leitz Market manager for Belgium. I suspect it would be more difficutt today, but you can try by writing and asking the information for your specific serial. I believe my friend Attila has retired now ! Good luck, and leically yours Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDM Posted December 8, 2009 Share #13 Posted December 8, 2009 Leitz use WISMUTH to fill the engravings. I do not know exactly, when they change to white color, but i know a black IIIc and a black IIIf, whereby Leitz use WISMUTH. BE CAREFUL WITH COLOR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted December 8, 2009 Share #14 Posted December 8, 2009 Leitz use WISMUTH to fill the engravings.I do not know exactly, when they change to white color, but i know a black IIIc and a black IIIf, whereby Leitz use WISMUTH. BE CAREFUL WITH COLOR If I'm not wrong WISMUTH leave a silver/gold color in place of white one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDM Posted December 9, 2009 Share #15 Posted December 9, 2009 Leitz use a mixture of various substances. Wismuth was a important component, by reason of the low melting point. So they could fill out very exactly the engravings. The impression of the Wismuth finish is very diffrent to white color. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted December 20, 2009 as far as I know Leitz was using Wismuth until cca SN200.000 (is not precise). I never found any IIIc or IIIf with Wismuth-filled-engravings. The major difference is that engraving filled with Wismuth are slightly higher above the surface of paint - filling was done before painting black and then paint was delicately polished above engravings just to remove the paint from them and made them visible. White engravings are filled in after black paint has been applied, white paint was filling in the engravings. jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Furst Posted January 13, 2010 Share #17 Posted January 13, 2010 I do not think that this camera is a real WWII camera for the following reasons: 1. The serial number is not under 400,000. Leica cameras used in WWll had serial numbers below this number. 2. I have 111c camera number 512451 that dates it at 1950, too late for WWll. Because the chrome was so bad and at that time one had to pay a high customs fee (USA) unless you defaced the Lieca name, the Leica name was defaced and was cheap on ebay ($90). 3. I had my camera painted black for these reasons for $500 where I live in Korea and it looks identical to yours. I really love the camera because it is so beautiful and is really admired in the leica club there. You too can enjoy this camera but it has had an engraver add the WWll notation. I could post pictures of mine but it looks identical and I am visiting in Romania so I do not have the files available here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share #18 Posted January 17, 2010 Danny, you are correct with SN and production dates. I never imposed that this is WWII Leica. Engraving Leitz Eigentum, not be confused with Luftwaffen Eigentum (which is WWII) means that the Leica was not sale but was used either for internal purposes or for ledning to a customer who might have sent his/her Leica to repair to Leitz. best regards Jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Furst Posted January 18, 2010 Share #19 Posted January 18, 2010 Thank you for the correction. I did get the two mixed up. Sincerely, George Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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