M9 sensor life

[IWC Doppel]

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I am sat thinking, let's say the I never feel the need to upgrade from my M9-P. let's be honest the M10 or M11 won't make me a better photographer

 

I moved to and from the M8 to us a M glass properly and get to digital full frame, my M9-P is perfect for what I want and need. But sensor cracking and the potential life and servicability are genuine questions

 

Have Leica stated any commitments here ? I see no reason for needing anything better I don't need more pixels I can live with fast glass and low shutter speeds for indoor evening shots and I like the CCD sensor image look very much.

[jaapv]

They give a two-year guaranty.

[theno23]

Though some very early digital cameras had a short lifespan on their sensors, I think modern ones are OK. I've got an 11 year old CCD-sensored Nikon DSLR that still works.

 

Even if your M9 gives up the ghost there will be plenty of used M9s on the market to cannibalise parts from for many years to come. Leica sold a lot of them.

 

I love my M9, and I plan to keep it even if I upgrade to a M10, but I'm guessing most people will sell theirs (like the M8).

 

Also, if Leica do their job right, then the M10 wont be worse than the M9 in any measurable way, maybe just a lot more expensive.

 

- Steve

[IWC Doppel]

Yes I'm thinking about 5-10 years at least. I bought my 'keeper' watch in 2000 and my HiFi and AV systems use most equipment over 10-20 years old and Sonus Faber Extramas, Living Voice Tone Scouts, and original GEC 211 valves and late 80's naim amps still more than hold their own in today's market.

 

I am expecting the same from my M9-P

[farnz]

My M8's sensor Kodak KAF 10500 is essentially the same sensor as my M9-P's KAF 18500, only smaller, and has been working faithfully for over 5 years without any sign of giving up (touch wood). I also haven't noticed mention of an endemic problem with failure of M8 sensors after x years and this forum is the place you'd probably hear it first so it's likely to last for your desired 5 to 10 years if treated right.

 

Tbh the batteries are more likely to fail before the sensor because they are Li-ion (Lithium Ion), which are innately born with a ticking clock that doesn't run much over 5 years (20% irreversible capacity loss per year) depending on how many recharges, the depth of charging, their average core temperature and the source of the information. Of course this is offset by new batteries continuing to be manufactured but should Leica move away from the M8/M9 battery ...

 

Pete.

[jaapv]

Batteries can easily be refurbished.

[wlaidlaw]

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Leica replaced my M9 sensor free of charge after the expiration of the 2 year warranty. It had developed 3 or 4 strange white spots on it and swirly marks under the IR filter or between the filter and the sensor. However my M8, which is a very early one at 3100302, is still going strong on its original sensor.

 

My main concern is the continued availability of spare Kodak sensors from Platinum Equity, who will only sell them if there is a significant profit in continuing to manufacture, stock and sell these now obsolete sensors (assuming the M10 will use a different sensor to the M9). I cannot imagine that Leica would keep a huge stock. Also do not electronic components deteriorate, if they are not kept with electricity flowing/voltage applied?

 

I would be very surprised (not that I will be around to see it) if my M8 or 9 are still working as well as my 1967 M4, after a similar period from new, let alone my Model II from 1935.

 

Wilson

[archi4]

Jaap

To my way of thinking a 2 year warranty is pretty short for writing off the cost of an M9 in the event of sensor failure/crack or board problems, dead pixels etc.

Thankfully up till now Leica think so as well and have been quite generous in their handling of some out of warranty repairs.

[bocaburger]

my M9-P is perfect for what I want and need. But sensor cracking and the potential life and servicability are genuine questions

 

Have Leica stated any commitments here ? .

No, but even if they did it wouldn't mean squat. Stephen Lee said the M8 would be perenially upgradable and look how that worked out for him and whoever bought an M8 believing him.

 

I'm in the same boat, not interested in anything improved from the M9, but the continual reports of sensor cracking even in recent M9-Ps is disconcerting in that even a replacement sensor evidently has the same probability of cracking, and I think it's naive to think Leica has a huge stockpile or that they would contract for a new batch when those run out.

[IkarusJohn]

They give a two-year guaranty.

 

There's a subtle, but very significant difference between warranty period (usually only 1 year on consumer electronics), economic life (an accounting term) and expected operating life (related to durability).

 

The M9 is an extravagant purchase, no doubt. It's daft if you only expect a two year life out of it.

 

I bought the warranty extension, then like you I bought the M9-P upgrade package, giving me a warranty through to October 2014. I'm rather expecting after that date that Leica will have maintained a source of all spare parts so my camera can be repaired if I need it for many years after that, though at my cost.

 

While expecting long term repair and service out of Leica might be viewed as unrealistic (bearing in mind even my extended warranty of 4 years, and life expectancy of what, 5 years?), that is exactly what I expect. I had my 50 year old M3 repaired and served earlier this year, and for the price Leica charges for its digital M cameras, I do expect the same level of service.

 

Cheers

John

[wlaidlaw]

I think under European law, a manufacturer is required to provide spare parts or a replacement item in the absence of the part, for six years after the date of sale, for all items costing over €100.

 

Wilson

[brianv]

The KAF-1600 in my Kodak DCS200ir is still working after 20 years. The internal SCSI 80MByte hard drive used to store images is still working.

[bocaburger]

The KAF-1600 in my Kodak DCS200ir is still working after 20 years.

 

I'm not familiar with that sensor...does it have a cover glass with a significant history of cracking issues? If so, then maybe there is some relevance to the M9. As it stands, I have to wonder if in 20 years it might be easier to find more intact M8s than M9s. Of course a cracked glass doesn't render the sensor inoperable, so someone with dedication could always Photoshop the crack out of his images

[jaapv]

Yes - but what percentage has actually cracked? An estimate - less that 100 out of 50.000 cameras - the frequency seems far less nowadays, so it appears to be a dimishing curve. It seems reasonable to assume that most sensors that were going to crack have cracked by now. Maybe a trickle from the last batch and a couple more from older cameras - those are odds I am willing to take.

[adan]

There's a subtle, but very significant difference between warranty period (usually only 1 year on consumer electronics), economic life (an accounting term) and expected operating life (related to durability).

 

Missed one - or rather, it is what you describe without naming it, in the rest of your post: "Service life."

 

That is - how long parts will be available. At the shop, we are now fairly regularly seeing 7/10-year-old Canons (10D or original Rebel Digital SLRs, or P&Ss) come in with one problem or another, including failed sensors - and when we send them to Canon, they are returned unrepaired with the explanation "Past end of service life." I.E. - no more parts.

 

Maybe the EU says six years for parts. Seems to me Leica mentioned 10 years at some point (and that may have been for the mechanical MP, or their cameras in general - I don't recall which.)

 

Keep in mind that an M3 can be serviced after 50 years because 50 years later, Leica is still making many of the same parts for use in new MPs or M7s. That won't apply to digital cameras because Leica doesn't make most of the critical parts in-house (sensor: Kodak/TrueSense; shutter: Seiko/Copal; circuit boards: Jenoptik; Processors/card slots/LCDs: ?) - and because parts commonality doesn't apply. It is likely NOTHING except maybe the RF and body shell will be interchangeable between an M9 and a 2018 M11 - let alone a 2058 M25.

 

It's one thing to stockpile 20 years' worth of spare $2.00 cloth/rubber shutter curtains - and something quite different to stockpile 20 years' worth of spare $500 CCDs.

 

Maybe Leica is factoring that extra expense into the $7-9K price of a digital M. And then again - maybe they aren't.

 

Personally, I'm assuming 10 years "service life" for my M9s (until 2022). Plus however long they can go past that without a critical failure.

[wlaidlaw]

Andy,

 

I am guessing that most us would be satisfied with a 10 year life for a digital M, as by that point, the technology will probably seem very outdated, not least in high ISO performance. I think it is more the 3 to 5 year life that is a concern. Given that my M8 is nearly 6 years old now, it must be approaching late middle age ;-}}

 

Wilson

[IWC Doppel]

I hope for 10 years, looking at the M8, if it had been full frame and had no IR issues then I would still have it (nearly an M9 I know), I for one don't need anything better, there are a few nice to have's like one stop better ISO and more dynamice range. But I will wait at least another 3 years before selling on, I would also like to get something for it at the end !

 

That makes in theory close to 10 years from a technology perspective 2006/7 -2015/16. I take your point regarding technology but there is less real progress than the marketeers would have us believe

[mjh]

I think under European law, a manufacturer is required to provide spare parts or a replacement item in the absence of the part, for six years after the date of sale, for all items costing over €100.

Do you have a link to that legislation? I have have often come across similar claims but couldn’t find any evidence for such a law to exist. It seems to be a myth.

[wlaidlaw]

Do you have a link to that legislation? I have have often come across similar claims but couldn’t find any evidence for such a law to exist. It seems to be a myth.

 

Michael,

 

You are correct there is no actual law as I believed. There is however EU guidance and this recommends that spare parts should be available for 8 years. It is about time this was enshrined in law and the EU did something useful for us, instead of just spending our tax revenues. Here is some guidance:

 

Spare Parts

 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mmradman]

Do you have a link to that legislation? I have have often come across similar claims but couldn’t find any evidence for such a law to exist. It seems to be a myth.

 

Not sure if this is applicable but google search turned this.

 

Current EU guidance is that, if a product costs more than £125 at point of sale then functional spare parts should be available for eight years from the date of final production. For cosmetic spare parts this period is six years.

 

Spare Parts

 

There is more where this came from...

 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=eu+manufacturer+obligstion+to+provide+spares&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=0TspUMaCGO6Q4gSwhoCIDA#hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&sa=X&ei=0TspULTRH4n-4QS2hoCYBQ&ved=0CEkQvwUoAQ&q=eu+manufacturer+obligation+to+provide+spares&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=2f9b6f5f6c7c5c45&biw=1280&bih=616