Older M 90mm f2

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I am looking to purchase an M-series 90mm f2 (for an M9). I've come across a 1990's version (Ser No. 3523xxx) E55 in excellent shape, but with a "small white speck" inside the lens (which the owner says does not affect anything). Questions: (1) I'm given to believe that such specks are common and really don't affect image quality: true? (2) What is the general opinion re the lens itself (as you know, it's not APO/ASPH) compared to other 90mms f2s (and even f2.5s, 2.8s). Price is under a grand: reasonable?

Thanks for your input.

[luigi bertolotti]

Generally speaking, I think a Summicron 90 "old" is not one of the best buy one can do searching for a 90: using f2 is critical in most of situations and the lens is not an astonishing perfomer wide open : I have one, but from when I bought (used) a Elmarit-M 90 2,8 of the last version, it stands always on the shelf... is more compact, has a quickier focus throw, and is better than the Summicron at any aperture. The Summarit can be a good alternative too, supposed it performs similarly to my Summarit 75 (which is really superb wide open).

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[ho_co]

das, I agree completely with Luigi.

 

1) Don't worry about the "small white speck." I have no idea what it is and wouldn't think it's common, but you won't notice any detriment to the image quality.

 

2) I carried the lens for many years, thinking I might get around to putting its head on the Visoflex. Never got around to it. The lens is big and heavy and merely decent optically. When I later got another big and heavy short tele (75/1.4), I sold the 90.

 

 

Unless the lens you're being offered is really well under a grand (USD), I wouldn't bother. I'd look for a late Elmarit instead.

 

 

BTW, welcome to the forum.

Edited September 5, 2010 by ho_co

[adan]

Well, an E55 90 'cron "from the 1990's" is not the same lens that had a removable head. That lens went out of production in 1979. From 1980, there was a new optical design and (smaller) size - ultimately replaced by the APO version.

 

I reviewed the 1980-98 lens here (item #4): http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/45854-praise-mandler-lenses.html

 

I recently restored one of these to my arsenal after 9 months of trying 75's on my M9. It saw a lot of use in the current issue of my magazine (follow coloradoseen link in my signature) - notably the lead portrait in the football fans story, and the picture of the little girl assembling a jigsaw puzzle in the "small library" story.

 

As to the white speck, it could be a small bubble where the 1st or 3rd element is cemented into the barrel (in which case it is not in the light path anyway). But even if it is more centrally located, it should have little to no effect in imaging.

[menos I M6]

Generally speaking, I think a Summicron 90 "old" is not one of the best buy one can do searching for a 90: using f2 is critical in most of situations and the lens is not an astonishing perfomer wide open : I have one, but from when I bought (used) a Elmarit-M 90 2,8 of the last version, it stands always on the shelf... is more compact, has a quickier focus throw, and is better than the Summicron at any aperture. The Summarit can be a good alternative too, supposed it performs similarly to my Summarit 75 (which is really superb wide open).

 

I fully have to disagree about the 90 Cron pre ASPH, being a bad performer.

I do agree though, that the 90 Elmarit-M is fantastic, except the fact, that you can't turn the aperture ring to the right past f2.8.

 

I really love my pre ASPH 90 Cron, as it is almost as compact, as the Elmarit-M, albeit heavier.

It is imperative, to have a good matching sample, to focus precisely - it took me about a dozen lenses or more, to find a perfect fit.

[lct]

...I reviewed the 1980-98 lens here....

Has it the same optical formula as that of the pre-apo Summicron-R 90/2?

[jaapv]

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I fully have to disagree about the 90 Cron pre ASPH, being a bad performer.

I do agree though, that the 90 Elmarit-M is fantastic, except the fact, that you can't turn the aperture ring to the right past f2.8.

 

I really love my pre ASPH 90 Cron, as it is almost as compact, as the Elmarit-M, albeit heavier.

It is imperative, to have a good matching sample, to focus precisely - it took me about a dozen lenses or more, to find a perfect fit.

 

Well, no Leica lens, certainly post-war ones, is a bad performer. But I must say the pre-asph Summicron 90 would not be my first choice in short teles. It is too heavy for its quality, for one thing, and the Elmarit-M 90 does indeed outperform it by a considerable margin.

[bocaburger]

Of the Elmarit-M (e46) and Summicron-M (e55) I kept the latter. My findings (corroborated by E. Puts commentary, FWIW) were that from f/2.8 the Summicron and Elmarit-M are remarkably identical in performance (from say 6ft on...the Elmarit is a tiny bit better in the far corners in the closer range until f/5.6). They aren't that much different in size and weight, either (especially compared to the thin T-E). F/2 on the pre-APO Summicron lacks the biting sharpness and crisp contrast of the APO-ASPH, but the rendering for portraiture is IMHO nicer. It has that creamy smoothness that hides some skin pores etc.

 

As for the price, I'm not sure about today because Leica lens prices have risen so disproportionately over the last few years. I paid about $750 for mine about 6-7 years ago.

 

If you're needing f/2, then there are only 2 choices in Leica glass, the pre-APO and APO. If you need that clinical sharpness at f/2, then there's only one choice, the APO. I look upon the Summicron pre-APO as an Elmarit with an extra stop there for emergencies and portraiture.

 

**Disclaimer: I had most of the ASPH lenses at one time, but no longer do. They (ASPH) are everything everyone says about them, in a good way, but my taste just prefers the prior generation for some reason. Something in the look.

Edited September 6, 2010 by bocaburger

[lct]

... F/2 on the pre-APO Summicron lacks the biting sharpness and crisp contrast of the APO-ASPH, but the rendering for portraiture is IMHO nicer...

Same feeling about the pre-apo 90/2 for Leica R which is my favorite 90 ever. If the pre-apo M has the same fingerprint i would run for it if i needed a fast 90 for an M9.2 or M10. Hence my question to Andy above.

[adan]

lct - the M version was based on the R version (and is closely related to the v. 1 180 R and the last version 135 Elmarit M/R). Four elements ahead of the aperture and 1 behind. There are a couple of small differences in the thickness of the elements.

 

My experience with both simultaneously was back in film days, and their images looked very similar. E. Puts condemns both with faint praise for their "soft sharpness" @ f/2 in his book.

[lct]

Thank you Andy.

[ho_co]

Well, an E55 90 'cron "from the 1990's" is not the same lens that had a removable head. That lens went out of production in 1979. From 1980, there was a new optical design and (smaller) size - ultimately replaced by the APO version....

Thanks for the correction, Andy. As a matter of fact, I mentioned the removable head because I was sure someone would correct me if I was referring to an even older version.

 

Please disregard my comment above, das.

[menos I M6]

… and the Elmarit-M 90 does indeed outperform it by a considerable margin.

 

It depends very much, what outperforming means in the photographers thinking.

A few samples:

 

Here, I really wished, I had a 90 Cron, but made due with the f2.8 and subject separation, I got - I was not fuly satisfied, nor was I able, to change subject distance and get a better (thinner in this case) depth of field:

 

"boss clown" | Shanghai EXPO 2010

 

Here, I managed, to get much tighter to the subject with the Elmarit-M wide open - much more satisfying separation, but little freedom, using the Elmarit this way:

 

"servant clown" | Shanghai EXPO 2010

 

Here, I used a 90 Cron pre ASPH at similar distances. It is extremely sharp for all purposes and gives a lot more freedom in selecting aperture for separation and light levels.

The subject distance is similar to the "boss clown" photo above. the reason for the sparkling, but neutral (and here pleasing to my eyes) bokeh is bright sunlight, breaking through the leaves of trees in the background. Would there have been an evenly lit background, it would have looked very similar to the buttery smooth rendering of the "servant clown" shot above, but with the huge difference of a greater subject distance in the Cron photograph ("servant clown" a little under 2m, "cart driver" about 4m with a much further away background even).

 

"cart driver" | Shanghai

 

The Elmarit-M indeed is a lens with a more limiting (not going to f2) range of use, but with two points, different from the pre ASPH Cron:

1) It is indeed really light weight (not really smaller, as it has about the same length but a smaller Ø - it share 46mm filters with the 35 and 50 Lux ASPH and 28 Cron ASPH, which makes this a nice set, to use).

2) It is really sharp and contrasty @ f2.8 already (the Cron is less contrasty, not as sharp from f2.8 and never as sharp in the corners):

 

"window" | Shanghai

 

This last photo was taken with the Elmarit-M wide open at a very low shutter speed, as it was already late in the evening. The whole frame is extremely sharp and detailed from corner to corner (the moire is caused by the downsizing and JPG not being able, to resolve the fine detailed facade on the right).

It is so sharp, that a 1:1 enlargement shows the cinema program on the right wall in the bottom left window clearly readable, as well as, every other detail, from the mobile phone of the sitting woman to the fine facade detail in the middle left and the whole right.

 

This is exactly the reason, why I own both of these 90mm lenses and don't even consider, to sell any of them - both very different lenses with a lot of overlap unfortunately.

 

The 90 Cron pre ASPH is not a bad lens. It is not a budget lens. It is not a lens, worse than others, recommended, to leave on the shelf. It is just a different lens and excels at what is it's speciality - portraits.

 

I have shot some baby with mother and baby with father photos this summer in Germany (which I unfortunately cannot share as of the request of my friends) - the 90 Cron really took everybody by surprise. The photos could be printed without any post processing and got raving comments.

 

In short:

- need f2, can take mare weight, get the Cron pre ASPH

- do not need f2, by all means, get a 90 Elmarit-M, which is one hell of a great lens

 

I don't understand, why Leica didn't keep the Elmarit-M in production in the "regular M line" with unchanged barrel design next to the different f2.5 Summarit line. It is such a superb lens.

Edited September 7, 2010 by menos | M6

[ldhrads]

been using the pre asph 90 cron for 2 years or so. When I first used it on M6 I found that the images lacked contrast. But were otherwise beautifully drawn. ON M8.2 rarely used it, now on M9 it has just came back from Leica for calibrating and it's a great lens. I can't compare it to the elmarit, but I'm very happy with it's output.

[de-JTC]

Thank you Menos for your detailed comparison!

Could you provide a crop of the picture with the Summicron? Would be very interesting.

Thanks again.

[menos I M6]

been using the pre asph 90 cron for 2 years or so. When I first used it on M6 I found that the images lacked contrast. But were otherwise beautifully drawn. ON M8.2 rarely used it, now on M9 it has just came back from Leica for calibrating and it's a great lens. I can't compare it to the elmarit, but I'm very happy with it's output.

 

Lawrence, it is correct, that the pre ASPH Cron has less contrast (especially, as the 90 Elmarit-M or even the newest crop of ASPH Leica lenses).

 

I consider this a good thing, because ALL my photos go through a digital processing (my film negatives go through the same workflow after scanning, as my digital files).

I add contrast, as I please later, but benefit from the better detail, the lower contrast lens nets me.

 

The 90 Cron pre ASPH does not have such a very low contrast, as older designs, which gives issues on the other extreme (adding contrast with such lenses to the same look of modern lenses does add image issues as noise, much lower dynamic range and a plastic look).

 

The 90 Cron ASPH is just about perfect ;-)

 

Thank you Menos for your detailed comparison!

Could you provide a crop of the picture with the Summicron? Would be very interesting.

Thanks again.

 

Of course ;-)

 

Here is a 1:1 crop of the portrait (it is clearly handicapped by at least two points, which make it look actually worse, than the original on screen or in print: it is a downsampled 250kb jpg and it is not a perfect 1:1 pixel crop, but resampled, leading to a softer look, which has been "repaired" by the standard output sharpening for monitor from the Lightroom export, leading to a somewhat less detailed, gritty look).

 

Mind you, this frame is shot through a tinted car window (robbing sharpness) from a moving car (albeit with a high shutter speed).

 

"cart driver" 1:1 crop

 

Here is a 1:1 crop of the window frame with the Elmarit-M, showing, which detail it resolves (anybody reading native Chinese for the cinema program ?):

 

 

In this shot, I focussed on the woman with mobile on top, so the focus plane should be more around the very right Chinese words (you can see clearly a sharpness fall off to the left most letters, as they wander out of the focus plane).

 

I am very, very happy with the lenses, I picked for my bodies. They all work perfectly together except the still misaligned mint 50 Lux APSH, which will go for a second alignment back to Solms soon.

Also, I am wondering about the 28 Cron ASPH, which is reported razor sharp (outperforming the 35 Cron ASPH) by some users on the board, but mine looks slightly softer (read not "soft" and still performing exceptional - better than anything from Nikon, I used).

I went through a lot of troubles and patiently tried many, many samples, before buying.

You just can't buy a rangefinder lens blindly - it will always be a "cat in the bag", even new. Sometimes, you get lucky, sometimes it needs a few trips to Solms.

[menos I M6]

Some people comment on shots, as the drive by portrait of the cart driver being "lucky shots" with a manual focus camera.

 

I have trained, to shoot moving subjects with the Leica rangefinder, as many shots are taken by me out of moving cars.

 

I use a oscillating manual focus technique, shooting often wide open.

With lenses as the 90 Cron, 135 Telyt or Noctilux this works fantastic - I prefocus the lens to a certain distance, when spotting a potential subject.

As the subject or I move closer, I constantly turn the focus ring around the point of rangefinder inclination, oscillatingly getting tighter and tighter to the point of perfect focus.

 

Even with fast lenses wide open, there is a certain dof, where the shot seems to be in perfect focus.

I seldomly hit focus 100% this way, but I net most shots within the thin dof this way.

 

The Leica rangefinder is absolutely superior over a splitscreen or the Cosina Rangefinder to me for this kind of work. Even in bright daylight, the Leica rangefinder pops more and makes this kind of work on moving subjects possible.

I tried my EPSON R-D1 yesterday in a similar fashion and had real problems, doing the same technique (less contrast).

 

So - these are no lucky shots, just a (maybe) different technique of focussing to the sceptics ;-)

Try it for yourself! It really works! The best thing is, although extremely capable AF cameras like the Nikon D3, I also use, usually excel in such kind of focus tracking, but due to the training with the Leica, I feel now more comfortable, to use a Leica instead of the D3 - you simply can "put your focus point" much quicker and more precisely in the frame, where YOU want it and don't have to deal with missed focus due to computer decisions or misinterpretations.

 

So this was wayyy off topic - back to the wonderful Leica 90mm lenses ;-)

[lct]

Great Menos thanks. Would you know the production year of your pre-apo 90/2 by chance?

[lct]

...I tried my EPSON R-D1 yesterday in a similar fashion and had real problems, doing the same technique (less contrast)...

The base length of the Epson's rangefinder is too short to focus a 90mm lens at f/2.8 with good hit rates, let alone at f/2.

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[menos I M6]

Great Menos thanks. Would you know the production year of your pre-apo 90/2 by chance?

 

It is a 1992 sample according to the lens database at summilux.net.

 

And no - I didn't use the 90 Cron on the R-D1 yesterday.

I had trouble already with operating the focus and gave up on it, as I just couldn't focus.

I didn't even review the images on screen yet - it was really bad.

 

Don't get me wrong, the R-D1 is a fantastic camera and I really want to keep it, as for what it is, but I had my first really negative experience with it yesterday - soo much better is the Leica rangefinder (I am talking here contrast and usability, not precision, which is known to be not up to Leica M standard).