agreenspan Posted October 10, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi everyone. I've got an important shoot tomorrow, and a(you won't believe it) stupid question about using an SF 24D. I like the TTL function - just stick it on and go, but for most of the pics, I just want a little hint of fill flash - nothing more. I tried lowering the EV to -3, and see no difference. Then, just for fun, while shooting wide open at f2, I told the flash that I was using f16, and viola! - less light output. Even the instruction book says that the effective flash distance will go down with smaller apertures. I guess I'm stupid, but I assumed that the flash would fire more light with a smaller aperture than a large one? Can someone smarter than me please help me understand this...... Should I use TTL, auto, or manual? Thanks, Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 10, 2009 Posted October 10, 2009 Hi agreenspan, Take a look here SF 24D Flash with M8 Stupid Question. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
kalina Posted October 10, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 10, 2009 Have you tried using the diffuser that came with the flash? It makes the flash appear much less shockingly bright. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted October 10, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 10, 2009 Flash on the M8 (and I assume M9) is the most crytical operation in the Leica system. The M8 manual is unintelligible; the flash manual doesn't even mention the M8; and the LFI articles are equally confusing. I haven't checked the M9 manual. Perhaps it has a better set of instructions. And why doesn't Leica even offer an off-camera cord? I use a Nikon cord. I doubt the big flash would had been produced were it not for the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalina Posted October 10, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 10, 2009 The M9 manual (at least the PDF I have) does mention the SF 58 and SF 24D, but the description of how to use these flash units is only slightly expanded from what the M8 instruction manual provided. I hate to mention Nikon on a Leica forum (I love both), but the Nikon SB-600/SB-800 manuals are pretty informative and they both come with a color booklet with plenty of examples of how to use the flash in different situations. Leica would probably sell a lot more flash units if they hire someone to write a decent manual for the SF 24D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted October 10, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 10, 2009 I can't help with the SF 24D specifically. In general, for "a little hint of fill flash" I'd set the flash to Automatic and make it underexpose by 3 or maybe 4 stops. E.g. if I'm shooting at ISO 320 and f/4, I'd tell the flash it was ISO 640 and f/2. If this is outside the flash's operating range (and you can't get the TTL to do what you want), you need to go manual. Put the flash on 1/16 power or there abouts. If it doesn't have a low enough manual power level, use one or more thicknesses of white handkerchief to attenuate and diffuse it (Kleenex or cotton are fine, silk is more stylish;)). Digital is wonderful for flash: you can take a few test shots beforehand to get things right, none of the old worries waiting for the film to come back from the lab (or faffing round with Polaroids). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
agreenspan Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted October 10, 2009 Is it normal for the light output of a flash to go down when you set the aperture (on the flash unit) to a higher number (smaller aperture)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted October 10, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Is it normal for the light output of a flash to go down when you set the aperture (on the flash unit) to a higher number (smaller aperture)? In Automatic mode, definitely not. Each stop smaller should double the light output (with concomitant shortening of range). In TTL, I'm not sure. I wouldn't expect the f/number set on the flash to have any effect on the light emitted by the flash. Somewhere - in the flash or camera menus - I'd expect to find a way of controlling the ratio of flash to ambient light, but I've never used a Leica TTL system and have no idea where you'd have to look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalina Posted October 10, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 10, 2009 Is it normal for the light output of a flash to go down when you set the aperture (on the flash unit) to a higher number (smaller aperture)? Agree with giodano, but also if your environment has lots of mirrors in it, this might trick the flash into thinking there's more light than there really is, so pictures end up underexposed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted October 11, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 11, 2009 ... the Nikon SB-600/SB-800 manuals are pretty informative and they both come with a color booklet with plenty of examples of how to use the flash in different situations. Leica would probably sell a lot more flash units if they hire someone to write a decent manual for the SF 24D. You're right that Leica's flash instructions are not up to snuff. In my case, since I had never used a Nikon flash before, the SB-800 manual was unintelligible because it used Nikon terminology totally new to me. Nonetheless, when I simply put the flash on the camera, the two did exactly what I wanted. I left the camera in Program mode and the flash in its default configuration got alone fine with the camera. I haven't found the 24D easy to use with the M8. One has to be sure to switch the camera and flash on in the correct order, and then (IIRC) tell the flash what aperture one is using (I know, there's no way for it to know otherwise), and then be sure the two are in compatible modes. The 'good' pictures I've got with SF 24D have all followed a large sequence of messups. Shouldn't it be possible for a Leica flash to turn on ready to work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mc_k Posted October 17, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 17, 2009 not a stupid question...I shoot from about 10 ft. and can't turn the 24 down far enough in any mode. I thought that turning it down -3 diminished the flash and telling the flash f/1.0 diminished it, but after reading your comments maybe I am wrong. If you set the aperture to a wider value it shows a higher guide number; I don't understand this either. I use the Leica goodies diffuser plus some extra material. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mc_k Posted October 21, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 21, 2009 Edit: After some tests, in Manual, I found the aperture setting has virtually no effect on the output. A (flash) compensation of -3 to -5 stops does the trick, however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalina Posted October 22, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 22, 2009 As good as Leica cameras are, their accessories leave a lot to be desired. My Nikon SB-800 flash syncs perfectly with my D300 and every other Nikon camera I've ever used with it (D70s, D40, D200, F100). It detects the level of light and compensates for it by adjusting the flash brightness. Given this rough guesstimate, I can easily change the exposure compensation up or down a notch if needed or to my tastes. The SF 24D doesn't quite do the same. I have to adjust everything manually. I would like a flash unit that behaves like the SB-800. I believe the SF 58 is that flash but it adds way too much weight to the M8 making it top-heavy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mc_k Posted October 22, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 22, 2009 I would like a flash unit that behaves like the SB-800. I believe the SF 58 is that flash but it adds way too much weight to the M8 making it top-heavy. I am surprised I haven't seen anybody putting the 58 on a bracket like they do with the SF24. I shoot almost everything in portrait orientation, so balance is important. I am thinking of getting a Metz 45CL-4...still not sure if it will do GNC. The SF24 is my first and only flashgun, so I don't really have anything to compare it to... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
agreenspan Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share #14 Posted October 22, 2009 Well, I did it - somehow. I gave up on the flash after a few shots. You are all right, the flash on an M8 is too unpredictable. And I tried all 3 modes and combos. Thank goodness I had good lighting anyway.... Here's a little make believe fill flash from that day using Viveza : Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/99719-sf-24d-flash-with-m8-stupid-question/?do=findComment&comment=1085615'>More sharing options...
steamboat Posted October 30, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 30, 2009 I'm glad I'm not the only one having trouble. The SF20 on the M6ttl was wonderful. TTL and dial down 1 2/3 stops and it picked up the asa from the camera. You could shoot any f-stop and it figured it out. Just a 'wink' of light. The SF24D on the M8.2 is freaking mystery. When I got the camera last year it overexposed despite what I did. Last evening I got it out and managed by using "A" mode and setting strobe for f2.0 and then shooting at f4.0 to dial it back a bit. But I don't want to shoot at f4.0. I want to be able to shoot edgy available at f1.4 and just get that "wink" of light to just add some detail. Oh, and on ttl it seemed to be pre-flashing which was also annoying. Perhaps I should read the owners manual--that might help, but from reading this thread it doesn't sound like it's very illuminating (so to speak). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted October 30, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 30, 2009 The problem I've found with the SF24 series for fill is you soon run out of automatic adjustment range with high ISO and large apertures resulting in overexposure. You need both for correct exposure with low ambient illumination and a small amount of fill. The only solution seems to be to work with the flash in manual and neutral density filters over the flash. I suspect the electronics cannot quench the flash quickly enough to give a low enough exposure for fill or the camera/flash sensor is not sensitive enough or both. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamboat Posted October 30, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 30, 2009 gravastar--as mentioned above leaving the diffuser on the flash will dilute some of the power of the flash (but not enough). I'm just stunned at how well the SF20 worked with the M6ttl and how poor the M8 & 24D is. But that's an old story. The film cameras--especially Nikons--were dead on accurate with flash, but when digital came along things weren't quite so good with flash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandokan Posted October 30, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 30, 2009 You could also try one of the large diffusers (like Gary Fong). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 30, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 30, 2009 I must conclude, Stephen, that you either have a defective flash, or you must have messed up something monumentally. The SF24D is the most problem-free flash I have ever worked with. Especially impressive is the ease with which I can dial down the output when I run the camera on manual exposure. On auto, the flash does normally balance the ambient light, taking account of its level. Now there is with every damn automatically exposing flash -- external auto or TTL -- a maximum that can be handled. If you dial in the f-stop, you will see on the display of the SF24D two distances, one close and one far. The far one is of course the maximum reach of the flash. The near one is the distance inside which the light will simply overwhelm the measuring circuits, resulting in overexposure. Opening the aperture and/or upping the ISO, will both increase this minimum useable distance. This is unavoidable. The catcher can intercept the ball from the bowler, because a certain distance affords him time enough to react. Put him five feet in front of the bowler, and he will catch precious few balls. The old man from the Ages of Flash Powder, of Screw-Thread Flash Bulbs, and of Electronic Flashes Running on Lead-Acid Batteries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mc_k Posted October 30, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 30, 2009 Steamboat, I have recently found you can get that little bit of light by turning the flash compensation down in manual. You can also knock the flash down as far as you want with multiple layers of diffusing material. Try it out in a completely dark room. Other opinions are mixed, but I have not had a noticeable problem with the preflash and closed eyes (even with the firmware from 2 yrs ago). And at some point the firmware is supposed to have improved the preflash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.