chetccox Posted November 24, 2006 Share #61 Posted November 24, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) No, Riley, I was not. I was referring to the post previous to yours and unfortunately did not quote the poster. My mistake. You got your post in before I finished writing my stupid comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 24, 2006 Posted November 24, 2006 Hi chetccox, Take a look here Announcement Published on Leica Website . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LADP Posted November 24, 2006 Share #62 Posted November 24, 2006 And, I still can't figure out what the blanks are in an earlier post. DBK Rhymes with "mass fraction," if that helps. It's a type of lawsuit. Personally, I think it's a ridiculous suggestion that it either would or should happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted November 24, 2006 Share #63 Posted November 24, 2006 When registering for the update, I'd also like to see Leica polling the users not only for the filters they want free (67 and 60 for me please) but also what sizes they might eventually buy so that we don't end up with a glut of 43s and 39s being as rare as hens teeth. That's a good idea. We also need an immediate announcement of when we can get our lenses coded in the U.S., since coding now seems more or less mandatory. Since 9/11, there is sometimes a long hold on items coming through U.S. customs -- not on any predictable basis, but nevertheless, it happens frequently enough to be troublesome. (The Luminous Landscape sends out video disks from Toronto, and subscribers track them across the U.S. by arrival date -- there is sometimes a discrepancy of as much as two weeks for identical items mailed from Toronto at the same time, because of delays at customs.) In any case, I'd prefer not having to send $16,000 worth of lenses to Solms, if I don't have to. And it would be good if the coding could be done while my camera is in Solms getting fixed. It would be good if Leica could make some kind of arrangement with FedEx or UPS for insured shipping. Leica doesn't have to pay for it, just give us clear instructions of what to do. I think Leica should make a deal with B+W (or another company, like Nikon, if necessary) for expedited manufacturing of the filters. February is too long to wait. If only real working pros got a priority, I wouldn't mind, because people have to eat. But how would Leica know who was who, and who was lying? I was one of the first to buy a camera -- I don't want to be the last guy to get a fix because I tell the truth and say, no, I'm not a working pro. I sort of think the cameras should be repaired in order of original delivery date. Besides, I don't think there are many real professionals who ditched their last camera system to move to an untested M8; the first cameras were delivered only three weeks ago, and problems were obvious immediately. So overall, I think "pro preference" would be a little weak. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted November 24, 2006 Share #64 Posted November 24, 2006 No, Riley, I was not. I was referring to the post previous to yours and unfortunately did not quote the poster. My mistake. You got your post in before I finished writing my stupid comment. ah, more my misunderstanding then, no problems Riley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted November 24, 2006 Share #65 Posted November 24, 2006 just a heads up on what maybe happening with mail customs wordwide are checking mail because of the recent terror scares this is especially vigilant for airmail, and particularly for England/UK, where packages can be held up for 4 weeks as you would be aware, cameras and flashes have some of the components to trigger an explosive device. Riley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 24, 2006 Share #66 Posted November 24, 2006 Thinking about it some more, if Leica are gearing up to supplying 2 free IR filters, why not allow users to order all they want? I accept that the extra ones would need to be paid for, but it would ease the global supply situation if this initial demand was met from a central source and personally, I'd much rather get the filters from a single source than mess about chasing around dealers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
egibaud Posted November 24, 2006 Share #67 Posted November 24, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I see that many people here are not too happy about the annoucement.. but here is my opinion: 1- it is very rare that a company says: "We have f****ked up and we are sorry" but at least Leica has aknowledged problems and come up with a solution. I remember Canon denying dust problems and now selling us the 400D with... a dust cleaner. 2- 30% Discount has gone? wait and see, maybe when people register from december 6th, they will contact pre Nov 27th owner for a one to one commercial gesture. (I may be dreaming, who knows?) 3- Some say, why not put the filter into the camera... not sure this is possible, remember that from day one Leica said digital and M was not compatible... camera size, space between lense and sensor etc... so I can hardly imagine where they would find some space for the sensor. And still they made it! 4- Some people cannot wait for february for filters, mostly pros who live from their camera job. Maybe Leica should partnership with third part filter maker like B+W to give away these filters until they come up with their own ones. Or at least give this option to owners. 5- Wait for M9... or M10, I have read here... well if you want an M shaped and sized camera I do not think physics and light traveling laws will change for Leica. Or they change the size and shape or... forget it! 6- Congratulation to Leica for coming up with a solution in less than 3 weeks... many of us have waited for solutions from other companies or products during months, years and many times we never got a solution... as often the company denied there was a problem. 7- at last and not least thank you to every single early M8 owner who has helped with his opinion and money taking the risk of trying a new camera with all the problems that can arise when something is new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 24, 2006 Share #68 Posted November 24, 2006 Some people cannot wait for february for filters, mostly pros who live from their camera job. Maybe Leica should partnership with third part filter maker like B+W to give away these filters until they come up with their own ones. The current problem is not having to pay for the filters but that there seems to be very few places that stock the B+W 486 filter in the sizes needed. I bought two from a German eBay dealer (who supposedly had 20-odd in E46 for sale) as soon as the IR/Magenta issue was identified (some time before Guy and Sean did their tests) but am still waiting for them to turn up. The dealer now informs me that B+W are having difficulty supplying the filters so I suspect I will be waiting weeks. I have a couple of jobs in December that the M8 would suit but I will probably have to use my Canon DSLR or film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFashnReloaded Posted November 24, 2006 Share #69 Posted November 24, 2006 Unacceptable. Whatever. Unacceptable is a war against an enemy that never has any possibility of defeating you. Unacceptable is knowing a car will blow up in a rear end collision then selling them anyway. Unacceptable is undiscriminating violence. A bug in a piece of equipment is just a bug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
egibaud Posted November 24, 2006 Share #70 Posted November 24, 2006 Whatever. Unacceptable is a war against an enemy that never has any possibility of defeating you. Unacceptable is knowing a car will blow up in a rear end collision then selling them anyway. Unacceptable is undiscriminating violence. A bug in a piece of equipment is just a bug. You are completely right and many here should understand that some people will accept what Leica offers (this includes me) and people who feel it is not acceptable have no obligation to purshase and M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 24, 2006 Share #71 Posted November 24, 2006 I've been thinking about this and I am pleased with the announcement. I'm not easily pleased but I do software and electronics and I know from my own experience that things can go pear-shaped, however hard you try. Leica have found a bug in the electronic design which may well cost them $1m to fix in the (assumed) 1500 cameras already shipped. To their credit, they've come clean and have put together a fix package which seeks to minimise the inconvenience of returning the camera. As for the IR filters, of course we would prefer not to have to use them but if the alternative is degraded image quality, I know which I'd choose. This camera is right at the edge of what, right now, is possible. Leica will have learned from this experience - not everything can be fixed in firmware and test, test, test and when you think it's working, test some more. The one phrase which should be banished from Leica-land is "The firmware's not final". Bottom line for me is that I will buy the second M8, I will have all my lenses coded, I will buy filters for each of them. And if Leica choose to let me have a 16-18-21 at €1000 off, I'll have one of those too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph S. Wisniewski Posted November 24, 2006 Share #72 Posted November 24, 2006 so, let me get this straight. even with this 'upgraded' M8, there's still problem with IR contamination so we do need IR filter for every lens we use? *sigh* why solm just go ahead and put IR filter inside the camera? wouldn't it be better than just offering these 'giving away free stuff' ? To put the filter in the camera requires cyan corner correction for all wide angle lenses. My personal feeling is 24mm or wider, but Leica is saying 35mm or wider, so they must really be fussy about it. The correction can be applied automatically if you use coded lenses, but if you have lenses that don't have coding, the camera needs a menu item to set the exit pupil for the lens you're using. This has been done before on other cameras. The Nikon D2X, D2H, and D200 have such a feature for using their older manual focus (no ROM) lenses. My guess is that Leica didn't want to do this because it would complicate the user interface and make using the camera less "Leica-like". will it make the image that much softer? is that what they're afraid of? No, it will actually make the image sharper. Infrared sensitivity makes images softer due to a combination of increased veiling flare and increased chromatic aberration. A different IR filter (especially a dichroic filter) would not cause artifacts as severe as those caused by IR contamination. Leica eliminated a minor effect and introduced a major one. I was very close to purchase M8, but I just don't get this fiasco over IR issue and leica's rather 'un-leica' like solution to the problem with their very very expensive camera. now I have to find IR filter for all the wonderful exotic lenses in the past with weird filter sizes right? *sigh* should I wait for M9? (or whatever their next digital M is) I don't know. How much of a hurry are you in? Personally, I've shot with a camera using IR blocking filters before, and I did not enjoy the experience. Since I'm looking for M8 for the enjoyment factor, I choose to wait. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grober Posted November 24, 2006 Share #73 Posted November 24, 2006 What exactly is in the M8 upgrade? Since we're asked to ship it to Solms, that must mean its more than just a firmware update although that also seems necessary. New Kodak sensor? different glass layer in front of the sensor or both? (No, I'm not happy to be without the camera for a month. I would prefer a hot-swap program.) -g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_tanaka Posted November 24, 2006 Share #74 Posted November 24, 2006 I am more concerned with the way Leica is handling professionals who need the camera for work, there really should be a hot swap program- this is very common in mission critical businesses. Leica needs to institute this as a basic courtesy to the customers who work with these cameras. There are some vocational photographers who may prefer to use a Leica M for their work. But nobody really -needs- to use one, particularly a camera that didn't even exist 30 days ago. There are many equivalent or superior cameras available for any imaginable job. The Ms have been principally instruments of enjoyment for a very long time. Regarding the announcement, clearly Leica is taking the issues seriously and is making efforts toward remedy. It's also clear that Leica made a bet with certain engineering design compromises. Whether or not that bet will prove to be good from a business perspective is yet to be seen. I cannot escape the expectation that it will not. Even if Leica manages to adequately remedy all of the M8's shortcomings in current or future models the "digital M"'s reputation has already been negatively tattooed. Sales of future digital Ms will face a stigmatized gauntlet that may, at that time, no longer be valid. This will cost Leica real dollars in a realm in which they have operated very poorly: public relations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 24, 2006 Share #75 Posted November 24, 2006 No change to the sensor, or sensor glass. My guess is that there is a small change to the circuitry which takes the output current from the sensor, converts it first to a voltage and then to digital. I believe the green blobs problem is caused by cross talk between the left and right sides of the sensor or else when the circuitry saturates because of a high light level on one side of the sensor, the next sample which is on the other side of the sensor is contaminated, leading to a ghosting effect. It's likely they have made a change to the circuitry, a change of component value, improved grounding or something similar. Relatively simple, but complex to fix because it is pre-digital and therefore out of the reach of firmware and the camera has to come apart to fix it with implications on dust and crtical sensor alignment. A poster on the German web-site has reported trying a camera with firmware 1.10 which he says fixes the streaking problem - I believe that was caused by problems clocking the pixel samples out of the chip and the programmable timer has probably been adjusted through firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 24, 2006 Share #76 Posted November 24, 2006 Hi guys , just got home and trying to catch up but not so sure this is the final announcment , maybe i am missing something Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reven Posted November 24, 2006 Share #77 Posted November 24, 2006 Guy why do you think that ? Do you know more than the rest ^^ ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 24, 2006 Share #78 Posted November 24, 2006 What else are you expecting Guy, maybe Sean has been filling you in with some extra detail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 24, 2006 Share #79 Posted November 24, 2006 Yes I am expecting more:D Check this out straight out of the can , just shot this a hour ago did not even WB this and just picked a couple random shots. With IR filter on and strobe fill in. This baby does rock. I don't normally even shoot this stuff. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/9956-announcement-published-on-leica-website/?do=findComment&comment=102775'>More sharing options...
grober Posted November 24, 2006 Share #80 Posted November 24, 2006 Guy, Care to share more about your strobe set-up? Did you use a wireless trigger? Just curious... (I have a Wein Safe Synch on order; my M8 has yet to know what "flash" is..) Good shots, BTW. -g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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