28mm F 2.8 ASPH & M8--impressions

[Jamie Roberts]

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Ok, Sean's review has some high praise for the 28mm ASPH Elmarit, and I liked the look of it (both the optical look and the compactness of the lens), so when I got my M8 I picked one of these lenses up as well.

 

I will likely splurge on a Summicron, or even the CV 28 1.9, but I have to say I'm liking the Elmarit a whole lot.

 

It was a gorgeous day today in the Toronto area--more like spring than November, so I went out shooting today to do things with the M8 I haven't been able to yet (it's been too dull and wet!). Like shoot directly into the sun!

 

I know this belongs, really, in the photo forum, but I thought folks might like to see the combination here. If you've got some other shots with the 28 ASPH Elmarit, you could post them too

 

One thing I can't show you is just how high the DR is on the M8 in the ISO ranges below 640. You have to see the prints.

 

It's really quite unbelievable to me--better than the DMR by an order of magnitude (like what? 3-4 stops maybe? Sounds impossible, but it is actually close to that), and consequently very forgiving to shoot.

 

Much more like shooting a 1ds2 than the DMR; except the M8 is sharper than the 1ds2, has more stuff in the shadows (really) and is way, way better in the highlights! Not to mention the glass kicks (but that we all knew anyway!).

 

Now I really understand why Michael Reichmann said he'd give his up when they pry it from... well, you know. That's how I feel now too!

 

All of these are unfiltered, using the fantasy-chrome-profile I cooked up that you can download from the profile thread sticky.

 

It was sunny, and so that seemed the right profile to use No magenta blacks all day--including lots of poly black coats which *are* magenta with the normal profile.

 

28mm ASPH Elmarit, ISO 160 - 640, C1 only, chrome profile.

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[ho_co]

Beautiful stuff! Thanks for posting.

 

--HC

[ptomsu]

Jamie,

 

great shots, anyway I tried t download the

 

fantasy-chrome-profile

 

and could not find this one. Would it be possible to post the link again here?

 

Many thanks

 

Peter

[KJB]

with or without a filter?

I'm very impressed with the DR of the m8 as well but can't seem to find any filters to see if it improves sharpness & DR

[pascal_meheut]

There is something I do not understand. When I read Jamie's post, I have the feeling that the DMR DR is lower than the Eos1DsII and 3 to 4 f-stop lower than the M8's.

 

This is not my experience. The DMR is at least as good as the Eos1DsII, even slightly better as far as I know. And I do not find such a difference with the M8, around 1 f-stop maybe.

 

Jamie, can you explain ?

[reven]

passcal,

 

I know it's really knda strange, but then the DMR came out I tested it for a week against my 1DsMk2 and I always got the feeling that the DR of my Canon was better. I also did some side to side tests, and got the same thing.

 

I also know that people like guy say the diffrence. Now I won't say that he or I'm wrong, but on my camera the Canon had more DR.

[abrewer]

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Thanks for posting these Jaime.

 

I've been itching to see this lens in action for some time.

 

Thanks.

 

Allan

[sean_reid]

Hi Jamie,

 

Thanks for the great post. Don't forget that one is never testing just the DR of a camera. The effective DR is going to be determined by the M8 and the specific lens. The macro contrast of a lens can have a large affect on DR which, as you know, I've written quite a bit about. It's actually impossible to compare the effective DR of two cameras unless they use the same lens, othewise, it's the DR of a camera/lens system that one is assessing.

 

Glad you love the 28/2.8. I still highly recommend it. Am testing 28s right now for a lens article and it is coming up aces.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Jamie Roberts]

passcal,

 

I know it's really knda strange, but then the DMR came out I tested it for a week against my 1DsMk2 and I always got the feeling that the DR of my Canon was better. I also did some side to side tests, and got the same thing.

 

I also know that people like guy say the diffrence. Now I won't say that he or I'm wrong, but on my camera the Canon had more DR.

 

Yes--I'll be happy to explain what I mean--but first basics...

 

First, I have NO IR filters--all my posted shots are unfiltered. It's just the profile, folks!

 

The chrome profile is here. It's not accurate, but it's way more balanced than the original Leica profile and will give magenta relief.

 

Don't forget to turn DOWN the saturation if it's too much (which is almost certainly will be )

 

www.fouldsroberts.ca/test/workaround/m8chrome.zip

 

I will always post profile updates in the sticky too..

 

Ok--now onto the controversial topic...

 

Please don't flame me--YMMV, IMO, etc... etc...

 

I nearly started a new thread called something like "M80 HDR device" I'm so blown away by the files.

 

But there's a lot of confusion here around this topic, so here's my take...

 

The latest Canon 1 series has at least a stop more leeway in the shadows than the DMR. Proof? Shoot a 1ds2 and a DMR side by side; open up the RAW file and push the exposure for the shadows. The Canon will win every single time, probably because of the noise floor.

 

This takes out your processing curve folks.

 

In actual practice, the DMR shot actually looks *more compressed* which people have mistaken for higher dynamic range (which it would be in film): you know, more contrast, better open shadows with less processing and so on. And the DMR has way more colour depth, and that affects a ton of stuff...

 

It's undeniably a LOT easier to process a DMR file than the Canon one, precisely because the Canon gives you way more choice in post-process exposure and tonal response.

 

In other words, you shoot your DMR, you see more more shadow detail with the same exposure? That's because the profile or your processing has moved shadows *up* into your monitor's visible range, not because it's *not there* on the Canon It's actually more compressed with DR.

 

Perhaps, just to be clear, I should call this exposure latitude; I'm not talking colour depth--which, as I said before, the DMR is way better than the Canon, but the Canon is all over the DMR in the ability to push or pull a shot.

 

 

That's probably the same thing as saying I can use the Canons at ISO 3200. I don't dare go above 800 with the DMR; that's two stops, folks.

 

The Canon has stuff in the low end and upper midtones the DMR doesn't get.

 

The DMR, however, has it all over the Canon in colour depth. This means, for example that the DMR has better gradations, micro-contrast and the Leica-ability to shoot right into the light without horrible banding, etc...

 

BUT--and this is a big but most DMR owners will understand...it's a lot easier to SHOOT the Canon. You need to nail nail nail the exposure with the DMR. So I can rescue highlights on a borderline shot much more easily with the 1ds2: again, you have to nail the DMR.

 

Now, enter the M8. It's much much much more like the Canon in the low end--at low ISOs, I can just keep pushing the exposure into places the 1ds2 doesn't even go! It's blowing me away guys... I mean it!

 

Something beyond it's ability to push to higher ISOs is happening here, and I've never seen it before.

 

So it's at least as good, and to my eyes, about a stop better than the Canon (and maybe more--but I could have just been tired and enthusiastic) in its ability to open up shadow detail without noise or artifacts, which is about a stop or a little more better than the DMR...

 

So it has the DNR of the Canon with the colour depth of the DMR. Wow. An easy-to-shoot and process camera (oh and that is sharp as razor blades!).

 

This accounts for the phenomenal (I mean it) amount of detail in places I expect to see shadowy messes--either with the DMR or 1Ds2.

 

Leica knocked this out of the park, folks! It kicks the DMR, which is not to say the DMR isn't fantastic; it is. So you know how much I'm liking the M8 now

 

Here's what I mean, given that pictures are worth, well, you know.

 

Here's an M8 shot at ISO 320. Direct sun reflecting into glass, bright sunny day, around noon, my profile, in C1. The exposure is on for the building.

 

The first shot is pulled half a "stop" in C1--just to show you highlight detail, but the second is pushed OVER 2 stops. Look at the wall--look at the *interior* of the building. Holy crap this thing is good...

 

The third shot is the colour detail, 100% crop, of the shot I posted above, which was shot directly into the sun. I can't do that with a DMR; I can't do that with a 1ds2. Only the M8 has the goods here.

 

28 APSH Elmarit

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[Jamie Roberts]

Hi Jamie,

 

Thanks for the great post. Don't forget that one is never testing just the DR of a camera. The effective DR is going to be determined by the M8 and the specific lens. The macro contrast of a lens can have a large affect on DR which, as you know, I've written quite a bit about. It's actually impossible to compare the effective DR of two cameras unless they use the same lens, othewise, it's the DR of a camera/lens system that one is assessing.

 

Glad you love the 28/2.8. I still highly recommend it. Am testing 28s right now for a lens article and it is coming up aces.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean--absolutely right. In the case of the Canon / DMR, I used R series lenses on both (and I still do!)

 

I was talking a bit enthusiastically, perhaps, about the exposure latitude, though--so maybe I shouldn't have used DR, which means something different in film and sensors and prints

[Jamie Roberts]

There is something I do not understand. When I read Jamie's post, I have the feeling that the DMR DR is lower than the Eos1DsII and 3 to 4 f-stop lower than the M8's.

 

This is not my experience. The DMR is at least as good as the Eos1DsII, even slightly better as far as I know. And I do not find such a difference with the M8, around 1 f-stop maybe.

 

Jamie, can you explain ?

 

Short post that glosses the longer one...Pascal... in terms of exposure latitude (probably shouldn't have called it DNR) at lower ISOs, I'm seeing the Canon 1ds2 / 5d is about 2 stops better than the DMR with the same lens; the M8 is at least a stop better than that, as far as I can test (can't equalize for lenses there).

 

In other words, the net is that I don't have to worry about it as much... this is a lot more like shooting negative film than the DMR "chrome experience" (though you should still nail the highlights and WB, of course, as general practice).

[pascal_meheut]

Ok. I'm not using my M8 a lot yet, waiting for it to be fixed at Solms (rangefinder needs adjustment) but I'll compare it again with the DMR as soon as I have a chance too.

 

I trust you but I never noticed such a huge difference between the DMR and the 5D or the M8. But I never did any real test neither.

[Rona!d]

Jamie, you have a dusty sensor

[Jamie Roberts]

Ok. I'm not using my M8 a lot yet, waiting for it to be fixed at Solms (rangefinder needs adjustment) but I'll compare it again with the DMR as soon as I have a chance too.

 

I trust you but I never noticed such a huge difference between the DMR and the 5D or the M8. But I never did any real test neither.

 

Pascal,

 

You know, I didn't notice it right at first either, but weddings have a way of making you push the cameras into their "bad place" very quickly

 

And then many people started to complain about how they couldn't get upper midtone detail with their 1d2 / 1ds2 (some even went back to the 1ds), but by then I'd realized that you really need to compress the Mark 2 files with the appropriate curve to get those details back and to get to a printable file.

 

So it took me a long time to get a excellent processing regimen for the 1ds2 and 1d2, but they deliver the latitude amazingly well. To my eyes, even the 5d--which I really like as a camera--isn't quite as good in the shadows as those two.

 

In other words, at least with my 5d, it hits the noise floor quicker than the others, and I've compared them all with Leica 50 Summilux / Summicron R glass.

 

But the 5d is easier to process too than the others too...

 

As Guy always says, the DMR files "sing" right out of C1--and they do--given you nail the exposure.

 

The M8 sings too, but it seems to have some super range

 

Ronald--yes--time to clean the sensor already!!

[Jamie Roberts]

One more quick proof point, in case people think I've gone crazy or something...

 

Here is two develops of the SAME DNG above

 

1) the original develop

2) this time exposed "+2.5 stops" in C1 AND opened up more with a tone curve! I think the fact you see anything at all is astounding.

3) 100% crop of the second shot. Yes, it's breaking up, but the DMR would have gasped a lot earlier and the 1ds2 would be a bandy mess, both in direct sun highlights and shadows...

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[sdai]

One thing is obvious ... Jamie. The lack of data massaging prior to the DNG formation inside the M8 is doing us a huge favor ... I don't think any of these Japanese cameras produce a true RAW file anymore, Canon, Nikon, et al seem to understand engineering compromise better than Leica does but in my humble opinion they've all gone too far with on board pre-processing.

 

I'm going to order a M8 from a local dealer here once you, Guy, Marc et al give your endorsement on the "upgraded" model ... make sure you drop by for a coffee when you come to downtown TO next time.

[chris_tribble]

Jamie - again many thanks for the work you've done here. Still waiting for my London dealer to get me my M8 but now thinking about work flow. I'm used to Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) in Photoshop CS2 and have been playing with the Lightroom Beta (Windows). I've used C1 in the past, and don't find it so quick for the workflow I'm used to.

 

QUESTION - I tried using your profiles with both ACR and Lightroom but his a brick wall as I couldn't find a way of attaching the new profile. I've read around the posts here and on the Lightroom Beta discussion and was getting the impression that at the moment only C1 gives you the facility to attach new profiles to camera. In the Adobe product it's locked. Am I wrong? If anyone out there can advice as I'd love to be able to use Jamie's approach. I'll probably get the IR filters, but would also really like to be able to work the way that's been so effectively demonstrated here.

 

Thanks again,

 

Chris

[lct]

Same lens on the R-D1.

More Leica like no?

Just kidding folks!

(although...)

 

 

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Peter41951]

Chris

 

I think you can only develop in Lightroom then apply the profile in CS, not the apply the profile in Lightroom.

 

On my computer, Jamie's three profile files are in

 

Adobe\PhotoshopCS\Presets\CameraRaw

 

and in

 

Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color

 

To find them on CS:

 

Image....Mode....Assign Profile.......(scroll down till you see the 3 M8 ones)

 

Hope this helps.

[etienne_werner]

Hi Jamie,

 

Thanks for the great post. Don't forget that one is never testing just the DR of a camera. The effective DR is going to be determined by the M8 and the specific lens. The macro contrast of a lens can have a large affect on DR which, as you know, I've written quite a bit about. It's actually impossible to compare the effective DR of two cameras unless they use the same lens, othewise, it's the DR of a camera/lens system that one is assessing.

 

Glad you love the 28/2.8. I still highly recommend it. Am testing 28s right now for a lens article and it is coming up aces.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Hi Sean,

A good illustration of that can be seen in the pre-digital cameras. When I was on a assignment for Reuters in Sudan, I carried both Canon cameras & lenses and a M6 with a 28mm 2.8.

When I developed and printed (the nearly same) pictures from both camera's, I found that due to the harsh sunlight, the sky was totaly blown away on the canon, were as the Leica 28mm (without burning in) showed some clouds in the sky. In those days I used a hand lightmeter, so both had same shutter and F stop. Both, if I remember correctly, were loaded with TriX, so the "sensor" were the same.

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/attachments/people/3402d1153853494-archives-west-sudan-sudan.jpg

rgds,

 

Etienne