M8 -- colour realism

[lars_bergquist]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Sometimes I think that we should suspect our own realism when we judge the colour rendition of the M8. Here are a couple of magenta examples:

 

I enter my sitting room, and there, on a chair, sits a black Tamrac photo bag. The low November light reflects off it -- and there is a very noticeable magenta sheen to it! There are in fact many nominally black dyed textiles that look visually magenta in certain conditions. If my camera under these conditions photographs that bag with a magenta cast, then this is OK by me. That's realism. Remember how upset people were when the Impressionists painted shadows blue. Such perversity -- when everybody 'knew' that shadows are grey! Similarly, viewers protested when colour slides had a greenish cast in the shadow of a leafy canopy. Now we have learnt to see in a more realistic way -- hopefully.

 

On my table is a late 135 mm Elmarit. This, in normal daylight, is anodised black. Period. But in incandescent light, there is a distinct purplish sheen to it. In other words, the metal reflects quite a bit of deep red, close to 700 nanometers, i.e. bordering on the near IR. Normally, that component is swamped by a lot of blue light. When this surplus blue is absent however, as in low-Kelvin tungsten light, we see the red part.

 

Once I idly looked at a deep dark blue petunia through a red filter. I was shockad at the colour I saw. It was not the deep neutral black that normal theories of colour had led me to expect (blue extinguished by the filter, = no colour, = black) but a dirty but fairly bright red. The petunia's velvety blue colour had in fact a large red component, and that became visible when the filter blocked the blue. You can do that experiment on lots of deep blue flowers. Many object colours are not exactly what they seem to be!

 

All this does not mean that the colour rendition of the M8 is realistic, and acceptable. It is not. But if a fix is offered, then we should judge it in a realistic way. We should not necessarily expect the hues that we 'know' should be there, but those that actually are there. Hey, Guy Mancuso -- please do check that those black bags in your garage are actually dead black! I don't expect that they were as magenta as in the un-filtered example, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were less 'standard black' than many of us thought.

 

The old man who remembers when colour films were new

[chetccox]

While it is true that many black things are not truly black, the human eye cannot see infra-red. The camera can.

[jaapv]

The old man who remembers when colour films were new

 

 

You actually used the original Agfa colour film in the 1930-ies? You must be even older than I am

Anyway, your post gave me a flash of recognition. With me as well the M8 has primed me to notice all kind of different shades of black around me. A lot of black is indeed purple as you say, and I notice quite some green casts as well.

 

While it is true that many black things are not truly black, the human eye cannot see infra-red. The camera can.

But I found out there is a distinct variation in the amount of short IR/long red people can see if they put their mind to it. I find that when I notice a purple sheen my assistant confirms it and my wife cannot see it.

[lars_bergquist]

While it is true that many black things are not truly black, the human eye cannot see infra-red. The camera can.

 

Indeed, and I said so. What I was concerned about was that (just as the enraged French

bourgeois at the Impressionist exhibition) people will complain that they have been cheated of colours that 'ought to' have been there, BUT WEREN'T. In other words, let us use our eyes.

 

The tolerant old man from when Kodachrome was hi-tech

[gogopix]

It interesting; I have a Delsey pro bag with nylon and also some older black leather, I took aM8 shot and the magenta cast with the profile fix did not totally disappear.

 

and guess what,I looked closely and now it is clearly slightly magenta, the leather, dead black!

 

Many irregular surfaces will do this. So too I notice a cloth coat (wool) and leather stay quite black in all light, but a polyester sweater and shirt are clearly tinted.

 

It may be that these profile fixes are better, and truer. It is just psycologically we think they are black.

 

Excellent point, and something the 'fixers' should keep in mind.

 

thank you for raising this issue

regards

[lars_bergquist]

You actually used the original Agfa colour film in the 1930-ies? You must be even older than I am

----------------------------------------

But I found out there is a distinct variation in the amount of short IR/long red people can see if they put their mind to it. I find that when I notice a purple sheen my assistant confirms it and my wife cannot see it.

 

First, I am actually a pretty exact contemporary of Kodachrome (and the DC-3). But the hiatus of WW2 meant that colour films were in practice a new thing in the late 'forties and early 'fifties. I even remember developing my Anscochrome in a Correx tank ... But the public reactions at the time of the introductions of Kodachrome and Agfacolor Neu were also well documented in the photo literature of the time, which I have been collecting in a small way.

 

Second, though what most of us 'see' (or maybe more correctly, perceive) is highly dependent on what we expect to see, I can well imagine that there are individual variations in the perception of deep red and near IR. In fact, nobody can ever prove that the sensual impression created by the wavelength of 600 nanometers is the same for you as it is for me! However, the biochemistry of the retina is certainly the same for us both ... what that Old Debbil Brain then makes of it, is another matter of course.

 

The old man from the Age of the Screw Mount

[Jamie Roberts]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Sometimes I think that we should suspect our own realism when we judge the colour rendition of the M8. Here are a couple of magenta examples:

 

I enter my sitting room, and there, on a chair, sits a black Tamrac photo bag. The low November light reflects off it -- and there is a very noticeable magenta sheen to it! There are in fact many nominally black dyed textiles that look visually magenta in certain conditions. If my camera under these conditions photographs that bag with a magenta cast, then this is OK by me. That's realism. Remember how upset people were when the Impressionists painted shadows blue. Such perversity -- when everybody 'knew' that shadows are grey! Similarly, viewers protested when colour slides had a greenish cast in the shadow of a leafy canopy. Now we have learnt to see in a more realistic way -- hopefully.

 

On my table is a late 135 mm Elmarit. This, in normal daylight, is anodised black. Period. But in incandescent light, there is a distinct purplish sheen to it. In other words, the metal reflects quite a bit of deep red, close to 700 nanometers, i.e. bordering on the near IR. Normally, that component is swamped by a lot of blue light. When this surplus blue is absent however, as in low-Kelvin tungsten light, we see the red part.

 

Once I idly looked at a deep dark blue petunia through a red filter. I was shockad at the colour I saw. It was not the deep neutral black that normal theories of colour had led me to expect (blue extinguished by the filter, = no colour, = black) but a dirty but fairly bright red. The petunia's velvety blue colour had in fact a large red component, and that became visible when the filter blocked the blue. You can do that experiment on lots of deep blue flowers. Many object colours are not exactly what they seem to be!

 

All this does not mean that the colour rendition of the M8 is realistic, and acceptable. It is not. But if a fix is offered, then we should judge it in a realistic way. We should not necessarily expect the hues that we 'know' should be there, but those that actually are there. Hey, Guy Mancuso -- please do check that those black bags in your garage are actually dead black! I don't expect that they were as magenta as in the un-filtered example, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were less 'standard black' than many of us thought.

 

The old man who remembers when colour films were new

 

Lars--not letting Leica off the hook or anything, but...

 

Yes--I've seen dozens of shots, some posted here, in mixed light, where the reflection off something "neutral" simply isn't neutral at all. None of my other cameras would render those reflections as grey or black either.

 

But under controlled conditions (like studio light) there is still a magenta shift; none of my other cameras, film or otherwise, would render those objects magenta.

[andym911]

This is funny...I have no doubt that at the end of the week we will all be convinced that our eyesight has been failed since we were born.

 

What we all assumed to be black, was in fact dark magenta or purple.Thanks to Leica this is now clarified.

And now that you mention it this black sweatshirt I am wearing does look a shade red when I stand in front of the mirror.

Next time the shop assistant asks me whether I would like those new shoes in black or brown I will be prepared for the discussion......LOL:)

 

'Black is Black'

Boney M in the eighties

[plasticman]

Please - someone - stop the madness!!! :-)

 

This is actually the funniest damn thread i've read on this forum in WEEKS!! Really - thanks for the laugh.

[andym911]

Correction....Los Bravos.....NOT Boney M!

[Peter41951]

As far as dyes and inks are concerned I was led to believe that "black" is either very very dark brown or green or red. Is this true?

[chrism]

I find that when I notice a purple sheen my assistant confirms it and my wife cannot see it.

 

Since we can assume you pay your assistant this may not be a strictly optical phenomenon.

 

Chris

[jaapv]

Since we can assume you pay your assistant this may not be a strictly optical phenomenon.

 

Chris

 

You obviously don't know her.... Definitly not a yes-woman:mad:

[lct]

Black is black folks.

 

(R-D1, tungsten, no filter, no colour correction)

[jonoslack]

Black is black folks.

 

(R-D1, tungsten, no filter, no colour correction)

 

Hmm - yes, but looking at your photo, white is apparently yellow.

[AlanG]

Yes the world looks rosier to some through IR shaded glasses.

 

What if the M8 came out 6 years ago and had no IR problem? That through some miraculous breakthrough Leica was the only company that could produce a digital camera that had a color response similar to that of the human visual system. And all other digital cameras were stuck with various IR problems and needed special filters and/or less than perfect work arounds that required users to do all kinds of testing of profiles and researching solutions for counteracting cyan corners.

 

You'd probably stick with your Leica.

 

I think Leica really better get down to figuring this all out so they can take the burden off the users and provide a simple out of box solution like the other brands do.

[lct]

Hmm - yes, but looking at your photo, white is apparently yellow.

Really?

 

(R-D1, tungsten, no colour correction, 100% crop)

[jaapv]

Yes the world looks rosier to some through IR shaded glasses.

 

What if the M8 came out 6 years ago and had no IR problem? That through some miraculous breakthrough Leica was the only company that could produce a digital camera that had a color response similar to that of the human visual system. And all other digital cameras were stuck with various IR problems and needed special filters and/or less than perfect work arounds that required users to do all kinds of testing of profiles and researching solutions for counteracting cyan corners.

 

You'd probably stick with your Leica.

 

I think Leica really better get down to figuring this all out so they can take the burden off the users and provide a simple out of box solution like the other brands do.

Alan,

Welcome to the forum.

Leica M's never were simple out of the box camera's. There are plenty of makers catering for that market segment. Most users that own it now seem to be -not happy- but understanding of the filter solution, as it is a true photographic one.

[grantray]

Black is black folks.

 

Black is NEVER just black. For everyone worried, and those who are laughing, please give yourselves the wonderful experience of a basic course, or just a book, in color theory. All visually recorded objects are light-reflected representations of said objects. These objects are filtered reflections through which a multitude of light-waves, (i.e., colors), pass. Therefor, the "colors" as represented are not pure, per say, but instead amalgamations of multiple reflected light waves.

 

That's the short and simple. Afterwards, it can get a little complicated.

 

-grant

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

Yes i know this Grant there is no perfect black and no perfect white either.

But i don't refer to perfection here.

In the real life i see the difference between black and magenta and i expect that my cams show me this difference as well.

My Epson can do this, my Nikons as well.

I would like that my favourite brand is able to do it as well.