markpsf Posted October 2, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I posted this on another forum as well but would really love some input here. I usually describe the M9 as being like the woman I fantasized about when I was younger. She was beautiful but beyond my means and even if I had her I'm not sure whether I could have "handled" her. I'm happily married now and don't fantasize about other women. But, despite having some cameras I like a lot, my fantasies about the M9 continue. I can't afford one but some vicarious experience is still fun in this case. I'd love to learn more about rangefinder cameras and photography. I'd bet my Voigtlander in the 1960s was one but it's been so long since I've used anything but an SLR or point and shoot that I no longer remember. I'd love one or two readable/accessible descriptions of rangefinder cameras and photography...a good intro (or reintro)....preferably on the internet. I don't want a book. So if you know of any, please post. Thanks. Mark markpsf@mac.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 Hi markpsf, Take a look here Need a Good Intro to Rangefinder Cameras. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
johnbuckley Posted October 2, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 2, 2009 Mark - there are some excellent books out there, including Gunter Osterloh's "Leica M." But if you want something short and useful, try this: Rangefinder camera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 2, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 2, 2009 I'm happily married now and don't fantasize about other women. Thanks. Mark markpsf@mac.com You're not dead are you? Sorry but the only way to get to know a rangefinder camera is to use one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markpsf Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted October 2, 2009 You're not dead are you? Sorry but the only way to get to know a rangefinder camera is to use one. Very funny. So I lied. :-) Well I'd be very happy to play with an M8 but finding one for rent here in the camera store barren land of West Marin California is really difficult. Any ideas? Mounting a Michael Moore-like raid on some U.S. corporation to enable me to purchase an M9 is not one of the options. Is there a film rangefinder whose operation re framing, focusing, and shooting comes real close to the M9? I might find one of those for rent. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 2, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 2, 2009 Very funny. So I lied. :-) Is there a film rangefinder whose operation re framing, focusing, and shooting comes real close to the M9? I might find one of those for rent. Mark Yes all the Leica M cameras, from the M3 to the M8, focus, frame and shoot the same as the M9. About the only difference is in the shutter release feel, the M7/M8/M9 have a stepped shutter release to operate the meter, lock the exposure in A mode (Aperture Priority) and then fire the shutter (the M6TTL might be the same but I've never owned or handled one). The only other difference between the models is the way the shutter speed dial turns to increase or decrease the shutter speeds. Some say the older M cameras, M3-M6, turn the correct way. I say the newer moedels, M6TTL (different then the M6) to the M9 turn the correct way. But in the older models, M3, M2 (newer then the M3), M4, M4-2 and M4-P it really didn't matter as those M's don't have a built in lightmeter. So you take a light reading with a handheld meter or a Leica meter designed to attach to the camera and coupled to the shutter speed dial, set the shutter speed and aperture and shoot the shot. The M5 was a different beast then all other M cameras and almost caused the demise of Leica and it did have a built in lightmeter. But it's not any different in the way you focus frame and shoot. So you might be able to rent one of those for a few days/week to get the feel for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vdb Posted October 2, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 2, 2009 You're not dead are you? Sorry but the only way to get to know a rangefinder camera is to use one. Very funny:D It's OK to fantasize....even when you're happy with what you have. At least that's what my therapist says:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 3, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 3, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Michael go here as well. It's a very cool and easy way to understand how it works, and it also gives you an idea how it focuses.. As far as this is possible from a java applet LEICA M9 rangefinder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_newell Posted October 3, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 3, 2009 The comment about renting/borrowing or even buying a cheap film user that you could resell without loss is good. A lot of whether RF cameras will work for you depends on how you relate to the camera and to the subject and it's hard to really know without trying it. You can read about swimming, but until you jump in the water, you don't really know how it works or how you feel about it. There are some uses that RF cameras are not ideally suited for (I am trying to understate that). If you take a lot of sports/action pictures, or a lot of macro pictures, for example, you might find RFs frustrating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted October 3, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 3, 2009 I posted this on another forum as well but would really love some input here. I usually describe the M9 as being like the woman I fantasized about when I was younger. She was beautiful but beyond my means and even if I had her I'm not sure whether I could have "handled" her. I'm happily married now and don't fantasize about other women. But, despite having some cameras I like a lot, my fantasies about the M9 continue. I can't afford one but some vicarious experience is still fun in this case. I'd love to learn more about rangefinder cameras and photography. I'd bet my Voigtlander in the 1960s was one but it's been so long since I've used anything but an SLR or point and shoot that I no longer remember. I'd love one or two readable/accessible descriptions of rangefinder cameras and photography...a good intro (or reintro)....preferably on the internet. I don't want a book. So if you know of any, please post. Thanks. Mark markpsf@mac.com I strongly recommend the book "Leica and the Leicaflex" by Makovec. This book although out of print is available used for very low cost (Amazon) and it is excellent for the following reasons: It is an easy writing style that describes the M system (and SLR) showing the benefits and drawbacks of each. It is written by someone who borrowed kit from Leitz and is enthusaistic about each item borrowed plus shows what he did with the various lenses etc. It teaches the basics: It shows by example the effect of using different focal lengths ....depth of field etc. It shows by example the effect of wide aperture though to Noctilux lenses. It shows how the rangefinder works, its benefits and how to use it [*]It does not cover digital cameras as it is an old book but the same principles apply. Everyone that I have recommended this book have been very positive...I hope you agree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 3, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 3, 2009 If you just want to try it out, buy something like a Zorki 4 (russian rangefinder) off e bay with standard lens. If you like that then you'd love Leica! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 3, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 3, 2009 The most comprehensive recent book is "Rangefinder" by Roger Hicks. Required reading for anyone curious or serious about the subject. Rangefinder: Equipment, History, Techniques: Amazon.co.uk: Roger Hicks, Frances Schultz: Books Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 3, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 3, 2009 The most important difference as against a SLR is what happens BEFORE you ever raise the camera. It is a different mindset. Let us say you are bringing your Leica M to a garden party. You have decided to put a 35mm lens on it, because it is quick and easy to use, and takes in a lot of human interaction at close range -- which is just what a Leica is famous for. Being an experienced M user (which you will be very soon) you have already put your '35mm eyes' on, so you know how much of the action the lens will take in. You have also already selected a likely working aperture, 4.0 or 5.6 maybe so you get a bit of depth of field. In front of you is a piece of human interaction you want to record. You are spontaneously pre-visualizing the picture (see above about 'eyes'). You understand without thinking about it that you want to have the focus on Aunt Emma to the right. You raise the camera to your eye. And there it is -- the piece of reality you saw, and part of it framed inside a bright line. You put the rangefinder patch on Auntie's spectacle frame. Because you are carrying the camera with the lens set to infinity (important) it's just a quick, short twist of the focusing tab, and the specs snap in. Recompose the picture and press the shutter release. Click. No searching for the subject at the end of a dark viewfinder tunnel. No pumping your trombone of a zoom to find a suitable field of view. No fiddling with cryptic buttons strewn all over the camera body. No wrestling with obstreperous electronic imps. No giving up and permitting them to decide focus for you. Flying the M is like riding a bicycle. It is very straightforward, and mostly unconscious. But in order to ride a bicycle, you must learn how to make your arse do the job. To use a M, you have to be a photographer. You must know about apertures and shutter speeds, and what they do. The camera will do what you tell it to do, without any ifs and buts, but you must decide. You learn the way you learn to ride a bike. You try it out, and you extract yourself from various hedges and brambles, but you learn the knack. With a digital M, the process is fast, because of the quick feedback. All it takes is the basic knowledge, and some determination. And learning it is fun, too. And when you have learned to ride the bicycle, or fly the M, you are a different person. The old man from the Age Before the M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted October 3, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 3, 2009 Great stuff, Lars. Who needs to read a whole book? You got it in one. Cheers Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markpsf Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share #14 Posted October 3, 2009 All very helpful. The Leica interactive website was particularly helpful in visualizing the framing and focusing process. I'll check out that book too. The more I look the more I know that this is really much more a question of finances than it is of match with the camera. If I already owned some Leica lenses it would be a no brainer for me.I'd love to work with the camera. But at an initial expenditure of $10,000 for the camera and a single lens the trade-off in financial damage would be too great. So, for now, I'll enjoy the vicarious pleasure. There is always the X1 but that looks like just a very nice variation on other point and shoots. The pleasures of framing and focusing, let alone the versatility wouldn't be nearly the same. Still..... Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bixi Posted October 3, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 3, 2009 The most important difference as against a SLR is what happens BEFORE you ever raise the camera. It is a different mindset. Let us say you are bringing your Leica M to a garden party. You have decided to put a 35mm lens on it, because it is quick and easy to use, and takes in a lot of human interaction at close range -- which is just what a Leica is famous for. Being an experienced M user (which you will be very soon) you have already put your '35mm eyes' on, so you know how much of the action the lens will take in. You have also already selected a likely working aperture, 4.0 or 5.6 maybe so you get a bit of depth of field. In front of you is a piece of human interaction you want to record. You are spontaneously pre-visualizing the picture (see above about 'eyes'). You understand without thinking about it that you want to have the focus on Aunt Emma to the right. You raise the camera to your eye. And there it is -- the piece of reality you saw, and part of it framed inside a bright line. You put the rangefinder patch on Auntie's spectacle frame. Because you are carrying the camera with the lens set to infinity (important) it's just a quick, short twist of the focusing tab, and the specs snap in. Recompose the picture and press the shutter release. Click. No searching for the subject at the end of a dark viewfinder tunnel. No pumping your trombone of a zoom to find a suitable field of view. No fiddling with cryptic buttons strewn all over the camera body. No wrestling with obstreperous electronic imps. No giving up and permitting them to decide focus for you. Flying the M is like riding a bicycle. It is very straightforward, and mostly unconscious. But in order to ride a bicycle, you must learn how to make your arse do the job. To use a M, you have to be a photographer. You must know about apertures and shutter speeds, and what they do. The camera will do what you tell it to do, without any ifs and buts, but you must decide. You learn the way you learn to ride a bike. You try it out, and you extract yourself from various hedges and brambles, but you learn the knack. With a digital M, the process is fast, because of the quick feedback. All it takes is the basic knowledge, and some determination. And learning it is fun, too. And when you have learned to ride the bicycle, or fly the M, you are a different person. The old man from the Age Before the M Lars - This is impressive to read through. Very well explaned. I used to be a Nikon D700 (SLR) owner and I swithched to Rangefinder two weeks ago. But my mind was prepared for this switch way before that (my husband has been collecting Leica Ms for many years). And I love the new approach of the RF. The manual focusing was the biggest challange but I got used to it in a few days. Every day I've been out shooting and every day I'm so happy having my new camera (M9). Good luck with what ever descion you'll make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted October 3, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 3, 2009 But at an initial expenditure of $10,000 for the camera and a single lens the trade-off in financial damage would be too great.If you buy a 2nd hand M8 and a 35/2.8 mm summaron you should be ready to go at below $2500. There is nothing wrong with that combo. L1000479 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (check full size details before you decide that it not interesting!!) L1000456 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! All you need to be concerned about is addiction to the Leica bug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 3, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 3, 2009 But at an initial expenditure of $10,000 for the camera and a single lens the trade-off in financial damage would be too great.Mark One certainly does need to spend that much for an M9 and a single good lens. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_newell Posted October 3, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 3, 2009 The most comprehensive recent book is "Rangefinder" by Roger Hicks. Required reading for anyone curious or serious about the subject. Rangefinder: Equipment, History, Techniques: Amazon.co.uk: Roger Hicks, Frances Schultz: Books Regards, Bill Here's a link to the US Amazon site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markpsf Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted October 3, 2009 I'm still going to try to find a rental of an M8.2 and then decide if the Leica is worth selling off all my other photo equipment. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to your X1 review....That may be my best bet for at least experiencing a Leica, albeit of a different species. Mark One certainly does need to spend that much for an M9 and a single good lens. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 3, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 3, 2009 ... I'd love one or two readable/accessible descriptions of rangefinder cameras and photography...a good intro (or reintro)....preferably on the internet. I don't want a book. Though Lars Bergquist's description tells you everything about rangefinder photography, you might like some more - perhaps not the same style, but an equal attitude: It's on the internet, great to read and to look at, accessible for a fee you wouldn't mind if it were a book, but a real handbook in progress: Welcome to ReidReviews Besides tests of individual lenses or cameras you'll find articles about rangefinder-photography in gerneral. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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