DavidStone Posted October 2, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I recently acquired a collapsible 50mm Summicron, vintage 1954, which seems in very good condition, as a suitable companion for my M2, which I'm just sending off for a CLA. On the bayonet mount of the lens, inside the U-shaped notch that's used to lock the lens in position on the body is stamped a tiny number 8. These numbers don't seem to appear on later lenses. Anyone know what they signify? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 Hi DavidStone, Take a look here Mystery number on older Summicron. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
UliWer Posted October 2, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Unsolved mystery even in this Forum There has been a thread about those numbers already, but which came to no conclusion about their meaning and systematics: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/67429-help-please-engraving-summar.html#post698061 JCBraconi is there giving the most examples for those numbers on different lenses. Your finding of a 50 Summicron with "8" adds a new variant. We should start collecting numbers again. I find the following: 3.5/50 Elmar nickel 1932 1433xx - "6" or is it "9"? 3.5/50 Elmar "red" 1953 10668xx - "7" 3.5/50 Elmar "red" 1953 10895- "6" or "9" 2.0/50 Summar 1936 3244xx +1937 4070xx - "8" 2.0/50 Summitar 1939 5232xx - "8" 2.0/50 Summicron collaps. 1954 12326xx "7" No numbers below infinty stops on 3.5 and 2.8/50 Elmar and 2/50 rigid Summicron with M-mount. Edit: I didn't read to the end of the old thread. It is solved! Those engravings show the exact focal length of the lenses. So a No. "8" on a 50 Summicron means, that it has 50.8 mm. Funny that there are also some with "7" i.e. a shorter focal length form the same years. On modern lenses - of 50mm or more - you still find these numbers, but they are next to "m" mark on the distance scale. The 1.4/50 Asph. shows "14" which means the lens has really 51,4mm. Edited October 2, 2009 by UliWer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidStone Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted October 3, 2009 Thanks for that enlightenment. I must have missed the earlier thread. My M-mount 1954 50mm Summicron has the serial No. 12181xx (and the number 8 marked on the mount). I also took a look at my screw-thread lenses. 35mm Summaron f/3.5 - no mark found, as expected. 90mm Elmar 1960 - no mark to be found anywhere on the optical head. 50mm collapsible Summar 1936, No. 3196xx - 7 marked on the infinity-stop (same place as illustrated in the other thread). It's clear that the number was punched in before the hole was drilled, which led me to speculate if it was connected with the identification of parts before assembly. Surely the hole would have been drilled before the part was plated and the lens assembled? Only then would the exact focal length be checked. So a scratched mark sounds more likely to me. My apologies for putting a dent in the hypothesis, but something here doesn't seem to fit the empirical evidence. Has anyone put one of these lenses on an optical bench to discover if the actual focal length fits the hypothesis? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 3, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) On lenses wider than 50 mm - old ones as well as modern - Leica didn't engrave the numbers, although there is a difference between the nominal focal length and the real one. The data sheet of the 35mm Summilux says it has 35,6mm, the 28 Summicron has 28,5, the 18mm Super-Elmar 18.3, so you could exspect a little "6", "5" or "3" on the lenses. I don't find any numbers on the 73mm Hektor, the 90mm Elmar with screw-mount (no tab-stops) or the Elmarit for M, nor on the new 75mm Summicron. I think the reasons are that these lenses have -almost- exactly the nominal focal length. The data sheet of the 75-Summicron says it has 74,98. Finding the "8" and "7" below the tab stops of my Summar and collapsible Summicron which are quite close to your serial numbers with the "7" and "8" is striking. Both my lenses have only a "meter-scale"; are yours with "feet-scale"? Edited October 3, 2009 by UliWer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidStone Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted October 3, 2009 Summar in meters, Summicron in feet. Neither is dual-scale. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkie Posted October 4, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 4, 2009 Could you post a photo of it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidStone Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted October 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Could you post a photo of it? I can send close-ups of the numbers on both lenses, but I'll have to assemble the Visoflex, which is the only "reflex camera" I posess. I'll try to do it today. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidStone Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share #8 Posted October 4, 2009 Two close-ups of numbers on Summar/Summicron as detailed above. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/98855-mystery-number-on-older-summicron/?do=findComment&comment=1061262'>More sharing options...
insomnigraphic Posted August 17, 2020 Share #9 Posted August 17, 2020 (edited) On 10/2/2009 at 6:01 PM, UliWer said: Unsolved mystery even in this Forum There has been a thread about those numbers already, but which came to no conclusion about their meaning and systematics: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/67429-help-please-engraving-summar.html#post698061 JCBraconi is there giving the most examples for those numbers on different lenses. Your finding of a 50 Summicron with "8" adds a new variant. We should start collecting numbers again. I find the following: 3.5/50 Elmar nickel 1932 1433xx - "6" or is it "9"? 3.5/50 Elmar "red" 1953 10668xx - "7" 3.5/50 Elmar "red" 1953 10895- "6" or "9" 2.0/50 Summar 1936 3244xx +1937 4070xx - "8" 2.0/50 Summitar 1939 5232xx - "8" 2.0/50 Summicron collaps. 1954 12326xx "7" No numbers below infinty stops on 3.5 and 2.8/50 Elmar and 2/50 rigid Summicron with M-mount. Edit: I didn't read to the end of the old thread. It is solved! Those engravings show the exact focal length of the lenses. So a No. "8" on a 50 Summicron means, that it has 50.8 mm. Funny that there are also some with "7" i.e. a shorter focal length form the same years. On modern lenses - of 50mm or more - you still find these numbers, but they are next to "m" mark on the distance scale. The 1.4/50 Asph. shows "14" which means the lens has really 51,4mm. I'll add to this fun weirdness as I just noticed the '7' in the notch and on the tab for my Summicron collapsible ser. 921672. Very cool to find the answer to this one 50.7mm! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited August 17, 2020 by insomnigraphic Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/98855-mystery-number-on-older-summicron/?do=findComment&comment=4028939'>More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted August 18, 2020 Share #10 Posted August 18, 2020 If that matter, we must show the measured focal length... Not quite right here, "7" it can be also engraved "16" in new coding "7" is a group so this group is in the 51.6mm focal length see this old thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xícara de Café Posted August 18, 2020 Share #11 Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) How interesting. I have a collapsible screw-mount Summicron 5cm/2 (ser. 13964xx) with a figure under the focus lever that doesn't quite look like the 7s posted above. Greek? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited August 18, 2020 by Xícara de Café Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/98855-mystery-number-on-older-summicron/?do=findComment&comment=4029379'>More sharing options...
Xícara de Café Posted August 18, 2020 Share #12 Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) Well, after some nimble googling, i found a perfect match. The Japanese character for "wa" in the katakana family of characters. So it could be a Japanese replacement part, but the focal ring that the tab is part of has "Germany" engraved loud and clear. Curious. When I showed the character and translation to my son, he suggested "wide angle" 🙂 see: https://omniglot.com/writing/japanese_katakana.htm Edited August 18, 2020 by Xícara de Café Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alemartinezc Posted August 22, 2020 Share #13 Posted August 22, 2020 This is my collapsible Summicron with an engraving I can’t understand because is not a 7 nor an 8. Looks more like a “N“ or “Z”. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/98855-mystery-number-on-older-summicron/?do=findComment&comment=4031130'>More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted August 22, 2020 Share #14 Posted August 22, 2020 Strange for Summicron 5cm/50mm, as "Z" is mostly used on Elmar 2.8/50 for group of focal length: Y for 51.6 group Z for 51.9 group W for 52.2 group ... Another mystery from Leitz 😇 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alemartinezc Posted August 22, 2020 Share #15 Posted August 22, 2020 This is the Summicron I have mentioned before, SN in the 1.044.xxx range ☝️ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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