Is the Leica M9 suitable for me?

[mingaun]

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Hello to all,

 

Greetings. This is my first post and i hope to receive some help and advice from all the members here.

 

I am a Nikon shooter with a D200 and three lenses 50 1.4AFD, 85 1.4, and 24-70 f2.8. I was about to buy a 14-24 zoom lens and complete my lens collection while waiting for the so called D700X.

 

I basically take family photos and photos during vacation trips. Basically snapshots but love to take nice landscape pictures. Problem is recently i feel a bit scared to buy the 14-24 zoom lens because of the weight. I started realising that one reason i dont take photos as much anymore is because the weight is bothering my back. I had not much option then as the usual point and shoot did not appeal to me in terms of their flexibility (high speed lens and iso)

 

It is at this point of doubt that i read about the M9 and it is Leica, made in Germany and full frame. My heart beat just a little faster, i saw the price, and i had to go check my bank account ... hehe.

 

Then came the hard part ... it is a rangefinder. I was like .... what is a rangefinder. I went to look all over the net to get information. I went to camera shops in my area that sell the M8 hoping to get a feel for it, no shop owner wanted to let me try it until one last guy who kindly let me try.

 

Firstly it was not as small as i thought but feels very light. Then i start to focus, i was a bit clumsy but it was not as bad as i thought. Feels different. Dont know what to say.

 

Now for my question and so sorry for the long intro, need to give some background. Should i get an M9 and forget about DSLR ( i cant possible support two systems, too expensive)?

 

I thought M9 is good because it is light and has basic functions. In my D200 i only play around with the aperture and iso and exposure compensation. That is basically it. I dont touch any parts of the menu at all, and i mean it. I still dont know what some of the functions are for. So in that sense i realise the M9 is it, but is it?

 

I only want something light and great image quality, and i felt M9 fits the bill but i just need to eat bread for a year and i will be fine. So just when i thought everything was decided i start to get a lot of doubts that M9 might be a disaster for me.

 

These questions keep bugging me. WIll i get used to the focus system. Will i focus fast enough (I am NOT an expert). Will i miss more shots then? The second main reason i want the leica is the lens. I thought they are the bast in terms of sharpness, color and contrast. But i get people saying that they are not much different from top nikon glass and i think i read somewhere that the nikon 14-24 beats the wide angle of the leica. That was really sad news for me, as the lenses cost so much more!

 

Sites like this The Online Photographer: A Leica Won't Improve Your Photography really drives me away from the thought of an M9. And just when i thought i am going to go get my 14-24 sites like An M9 In Paris – A Field Review make me think twice again because once i buy the zoom lens i think M9 would be out of the question. I dont want to buy Leica with my heart but my head only, but i realise sometimes that is difficult.

 

Sorry for rambling so much in this first post, this rambling has been going on in my head for weeks and i cant decide. The key is basically will i miss more shots? ( i tried to manual focus with my nikon lens and if not for the green dot, i will miss focus most of the time especially at 1.4) Is the Leica lens really that much better than the top nikon lens? (I am not a pixel peeper, i want to be able to see two pictures and able to differentiate which is Leica and which is Nikon)

 

Just to let you all know the kind of picture i make, here are the links

Hong Kong - mingaun's Photos- powered by SmugMug

Black and White - mingaun's Photos- powered by SmugMug

 

Thanks for reading

Mark

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[diogenis]

You saw the M8 which is almost identical as the M9, but I guess you never had a chance to really try the camera out. Well you have to do this. M's will give you a great viewfinder look, bright and wide when compared to a dSLR, but you must relate that feeling with precision and fast response to actual picture taking

You can also look at leica's site, they show you how the whole thing works .. its cool.

As for IQ you simply don't have to worry there. Great lens and this camera gives you really great pictures.

 

However take also a look into X1: It is so cheap and nice, that in the end you might end up using this one instead.

 

Edit: btw, you can easily tell this guy, John Camp, doesn't have a single clue about Leicas. His basic reasoning is that he says what he says because he says so If you want a better unbiassed review of what to expect go have a look at http://www.reidreviews.com

[mingaun]

Diogenis

 

Thanks for the info.

Yes the M8 is what i tried for less than a minute. Dont think i can make much out of that, but i did realise the viewfinder was bright, which is nice.

 

I did go to the Leica website, the focus there was too easy. I think it is more to show what a rangefinder does. Even when i purposely go out of focus a little ..... it says "Great".

 

i know Leica has great lens. But can that difference be seen obviously, as in my wife comes in and sees two pictures, will she say, "Gosh the leica's shot is so much better." If i do get the M9 i will buy the 50 summilux ASPH and one day get another wide angle. Will this summilux be much better than my nikon 50mm or even the ZF 50 1.4?

 

I have subscribed to Reid's reviews which is excellent. Great and clear analysis. He has a very objective way to asess things.

 

At this point in time i have a slight tendency towards Nikon and suffer the weight. But my heart still wants an M9. Please someone show me something to put this misery out of my mind.

[dpattinson]

I think you would miss more shots, and it would be a very expensive lesson to buy a M9 and lens(es) new and then find out you didn't get the results you were hoping for. I would take you some time to get used to the camera and manual focusing and shooting at f1.4 would certainly be an exercise in frustration at first.

 

However, it is certainly true that if you don't carry your camera at all due to its weight, then you miss 100% of your shots. This aspect of the M camera is one of the main reasons I use them - I can carry and use the camera anywhere.

 

So - if you don't mind too much missing focus and possibly exposure on some shots - for the payback of being able to carry your camera everywhere - then I respectfully suggest buying a second hand M8 and one second hand lens (28 or 35 for the M8). If you find after a few months that you get along, then you can trade this stuff up for a M9. If not, you won't lose too much on the lesson. Don't sell your Nikon gear until you've had the M8 for three months or so of use, otherwise having to buy back the Nikon gear will cost more than the loss you take on reselling the M8.

[vla]

Mingaun,

I guess a lot of us where in your situation some time ago. Rangefinder shooting is very different from DSLR shooting and you need to find out whether you like it and whether it suits your need. Here are a couple of questions - if your answer to all or most of them is yes, than digital rangefinders might be something for you -

 

- you are ambitious in taking pictures and not just a 'point-and-shoot'-guy

- when taking pictures you enjoy setting technical parameters, such as aperture, iso, exposure yourself

- you prefer a camera that can do a few things very well vs. a mediocre allrounder

- optical excellence is important to you

- you value build quality and solid engineering, even if it does not give you a clear functional advantage

- you can affort spending 4-8k euros just for the 'fun' of taking pictures

- you are a 'digital' guy and definitely do not want to go back to film

 

Try to get an M8 for a couple of hours or even a weekend and try it out. If you like it, you'll also like the M9, if not, the M9 probably won't do it for you, either.

I would not be too concerned about lack of zoom lenses and manual focus. Prior to switching to Leica I used Canon DSLRs. I quickly realized that manual focus is just a questions of practice and that the most powerful zoom lens on the earth are two human legs ... :-)

 

Good luck,

Markus

 

PS - enclosed link to dpreview's article on M8, might be helpful

 

Leica M8 Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

[diogenis]

I did go to the Leica website, the focus there was too easy. I think it is more to show what a rangefinder does. Even when i purposely go out of focus a little ..... it says "Great".

That's how it is in reality. It is easy. And fast. Basically the important thing is for you to be able to align both images to get infocus shoots. Camera precision then takes over and you get tack sharp images. It is a very fast and precise mechanism, but it is also a mechanism that allows you to focus the way you want it, as opposed to letting the camera choose one of 55 focus points.

Now, it has limitations: obviously you cant follow a fast moving target easily but the more you use the system the better you get on this aspect. You also get more involved, in that the photos that you get tack sharp is because you did it and not a super duper Imager ccd....

i know Leica has great lens. But can that difference be seen obviously, as in my wife comes in and sees two pictures, will she say, "Gosh the leica's shot is so much better." If i do get the M9 i will buy the 50 summilux ASPH and one day get another wide angle. Will this summilux be much better than my nikon 50mm or even the ZF 50 1.4?

 

I have subscribed to Reid's reviews which is excellent. Great and clear analysis. He has a very objective way to asess things.

 

At this point in time i have a slight tendency towards Nikon and suffer the weight. But my heart still wants an M9. Please someone show me something to put this misery out of my mind.

You will be able to spot differences with D200.

I would say and with D700, but D700 is also a very nice camera, but as you say its heavy and big and...

in the end you will be the judge of what your needs habits are. Also, the lens that you chose for M9 is very well built and you can hardy find an equal elsewhere, but this lens is getting a tad long when used on M8, and you will also need a wider one, something light and compact @28 maybe an elmarit, then this makes an unbeatable combo of the smallest and lightest camera in the world.

[tom0511]

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I agree with other that you should try a rangefinder first.

The problem is that there will be a lurning curve and you can not really expect to take a rangefinder in your hand and just shoot as you did before. So best would be if you could try one for a longer period. I dont know how to achieve.

I use both Nikon DSLR and Leica M8/M9 and if you ask me - yes, you will see a difference in the images.

1) Lenses:

While there are also some very good Nikon lenses, nearly all modern Leica lenses are just impressive. Specially in low light and at wider apartures the Leica lenses impress.

The 50asph, specially wide open is just visibly better than the Nikon lenses.

In the short Tele range 75-105mm I believe that the 85/105DC are very good lenses and not much worse than the Leica M counterparts.

Wide angle - I guess both the Nikon 14-24 and the Leica M wides are very good, and it doesnt really matter if one might have the slight edge or the other.

now in the 24-35mm area the Leica M lenses are better than the Nikon Counterparts.

2) Sensor:

Leica sensor without AA filter, sharper at pixel level, very nice transitions between tones, eventually once in a while some moirree (I never had a problem with it), eventually slightly worse at very high ISO; Overall for me I really prefer the Leica sensor

3) handling:

With the Rangefinder you need to work with external viewfinder for the wides. With the DSLR you get what you see, with the rangefinder you have to also use your imahination a little bit more, you can not frame as accurate.

With some training that works really good with me. And with the rangefinder I feel I focus faster than with a manuel SLR. Also pretty accurate.

The next thing is tele: with the rangefinder you are limited to max 135mm, and you wontr be able to focus that lens accurate wide open. So there is no real replacement for your 70-200/2.8

 

Ideally you would keep your D200 and maybe the 24-700 and 70-200 and add a rangefinder, maybe start with a M8 which you can het for a good price now, and if you love the rangefinder replace the M8 with a M9 in half a year.

[lct]

Pick up a cheap Bessa and a couple of Voigtlander lenses to see if RF is really your cup of tea.

[mingaun]

Thank you all for your comments. I am still new at this, still trying to figure out how to quote your statements.

 

David i think you hit the nail when you said it would be an expensive lesson. Thats probably the one thing that is holding me up. I am scared that after the purchase, photography would become a pain.

 

I come from Malaysia, i work as a medical doctor, i can probably afford an M9 if i wanted to, but i dont like to spend money unwisely. In my country it is not easy to sell stuff back. Getting an M8 seems not too bad an idea ..... i need to seriously think down that route because it is also a lot cheaper.

 

Markus, all very good questions. I drive an old manual Volvo which everyone tells me to change but i like it. Sheer driving pleasure. I dont rush to make pictures, i think about them and fiddle with the aperture and iso for the best possible quality. In fact i almost never shoot above iso 400.

 

Is it easier to shoot at f1.4 with autofocus or rangefinder? On my nikon 8/10 would be spot on using autofocus, if i change to manual focus it is like 2/10, really poor. Dont know why. I am a newcomer to photography about 4 years and i basically only used autofocus, in fact D200 is my first and only camera.

 

The other thing is i am not a "photojournalist" type of person which Leica seems to excel at. I dont like to take strangers in photos and feel "shy." My main love is still family and landscape.

 

At least now i have more food for thought.

[delander †]

You are not only worried about the weight of the gear but also being obtrusive, so you miss some photos. Leica helps you solve those concerns and encourages one to look at pure photography in a different way. I'd bite the bullet, go for the M9.

 

jeff

[dpattinson]

Is it easier to shoot at f1.4 with autofocus or rangefinder? On my nikon 8/10 would be spot on using autofocus, if i change to manual focus it is like 2/10, really poor. Dont know why. I am a newcomer to photography about 4 years and i basically only used autofocus, in fact D200 is my first and only camera.

 

The other thing is i am not a "photojournalist" type of person which Leica seems to excel at. I dont like to take strangers in photos and feel "shy." My main love is still family and landscape.

 

At least now i have more food for thought.

 

Shooting at 1.4 with a rangefinder is easy so long as the subject is not moving. If the subject is moving then it gets tricky, but certainly not unachievable. I very often shoot my lenses wide open - which in the case of the 35 and 50 means f1.4, other lenses at f2;

 

Manual focus on most DSLR's is truly awful, particularly with wider lenses. The screens aren't all that bright an most lack any kind of focusing aid like a split prism. You will be much better at manual focusing with an M camera.

 

If you can afford to tie up some cash in a camera for a while. I recommend buying the M8 second-hand (you should be able to get a near mint one), and a couple of good lenses second hand. Personally I would suggest:

 

either the 24 Elmarit asph (effective 32 on the M8) or 28 Summicron asph (effective 37 on M8)

and either the 50 Summilux asph (effective 67 on M8) or perhaps the 35 Summilux asph (effective 47 on M8).

 

That will give you a decent wide lens and one fast standard-ish lens. There are plenty of other good lenses, including Summarits (cheaper but a little slower) and lenses from other manufacturers. The lenses you can keep if you move to the M9, and most likely you will never need to replace them. If you decide that the M is not for you, most dealers will repurchase second-hand gear at 70% or better, or you can resell privately. The lenses will hold their value well - mine have appreciated in value over the past couple of years.

 

With the M8 and two lenses, you will be able to take the vast majority of landscape/people oriented shots and have very little to carry. Mine fits in one of these, along with several spare batteries: Billingham Airline Stowaway Bag - Black/Black (500601-01)

[Guest Bernd Banken]

Hi Mark,

 

just saw your fine pics in color and b/w. From my impression I would say change asap,

but as said above there is some risc for your money.

As an old Nikonist from the F to D70 and D200 the experiment of a new viewfindersystem in a high price level as for the M8 was too risky as mentioned so I bought for training purpose a cheap M6 and an old, oily 50 F2 Summicron.

 

First developed film after more than 30 years...

 

A Bigger Bang on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

This camera waked up my old love for b/w film inclusive own developing of film in the bath which I gave up around 1973.....

 

So my thinking about your investment as follows:

 

Take a cheap M6 and a Summicron 50mm second hand or, better for your landscape work a cheap 35mm Voigtlander pancake II f2.5 as a allround lens.

Buy the Kodak BW400 B/W film for drugstore developing and shoot, shoot, shoot.

 

You will be astonished how easy it is - except for fast moving children, lions in Namibia etc.

 

Leica focussing in the dark:

 

.. on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

Your landscape shots in color show a wide angle use which will suit the M style (mild telelens, wide,wide angle lenses)

 

In the meantime your D200 will be used as a backup or colormachine.

 

After a short time you'll have dust on your Nikon as I have, but I converted to film and b/w as in the past.

 

If your test will show that you are not a RF man, no worries, take the D700X and keep the Leica for b/w.......and a small footprint. But this will not happen!

 

For me the test and the training for a M8 was useless at that time because the M8 was not my cup of tea due to early teething problems. I want it easy and simple but after three years the M9 is a different horse in terms of liability and overall capabilities.

No hassle with filters, adapters, wide angle from third party etc. etc.

 

So I have no M8 but at the end of the year a M9 will come closer with some luck....

 

BTW: I'm now nearly 62 years old, wearing glasses and the back doesn't like 14-24 or 80-200 or, or.......

 

Last advice: Jump - the water is warmer as you expect..

 

Cheers

Bernd

[redbaron]

I think you may see more of a difference in the composition of your images than any differences in lenses. One of the most important benefits of rangefinders, to me, is the ability to see outside the frame through the finder. Maybe you could hire one first?

[Guest Bernd Banken]

I think you may see more of a difference in the composition of your images than any differences in lenses. One of the most important benefits of rangefinders, to me, is the ability to see outside the frame through the finder. Maybe you could hire one first?

 

Sorry, when I take a 28mm with my MP 0.72 there is no space......but doesn't matter......

 

Shooting Leica like pics is a matter ot the firmware between the ears.....

[Shootist]

The only real way to tell is to try one.

Personally I started with a SLR back in the 70's and once I used a Leica M3 I sold all my SLR gear.

 

Recently when I got back in to photography I bought a Nikon D200. I was never satisfied with the images I got from it. So I bought a Leica M3 and started shooting film again, using the D200 when I felt the need. When the M8 came out I bought one and "Never" used the Nikon again, selling it and all lenses about a year after getting the M8.

 

But I like rangefinder photography, don't use long lenses much (even though I did have the Nikkor 70-200VR f/2.8 for the D200. That sat in it's case 99.9999% of the time) and just like the feel of the M cameras over SLR's.

 

The images from the M8 are just better then the D200. Whether someone else will see it or not (?) you will notice. People say the M9 images are even better.

 

I can now go out with a M8 and 2-3 lenses and still not be carying as much gear weight and bulk as the D200 and 1 good zoom lens.

[guidomo]

I don't know where you live, but in the US they used to have a test drive programme for the M8. They would mail you an M8 and you could try it out for a few days.

 

Now, mingaun, I'll tell you my story. I had been using film SLRs and when digital came around I was intrigued by small pocketable point 'n shoots. I used them, got crap photos, but was OK because I had a camera that was always with me. Then we had our first child and I realised I needed a better camera. Looked at DSLRs (not interested in film anymore) but realised that they were too big and clumsy for my taste - we have loads of stuff when we go out with the kids - now three! Also, I had enough of all the automatic functions which took the photography away from me and put the electronics in charge. Well, I saw the M8 and just in an impulse jumped on it. I had never used a rangefinder before but as far as the concept and limitations go I knew what I was buying into. Get the M8 and a 35mm Summilux Asph. I learnt how to focus and believe me, it is not hard if you have decent vision and normal motor skills. Yes, focussing on kids in action is a challenge, and I have misfocussed images, but it feels great to be in charge of the photo. You choose the aperture, control the depth of field, focus accordingly and shoot. Best of all, you decide where the focus should be. It is all very direct, you look through a window into world, adjust a little on the camera/lens without moving the camera from your eye, and take a picture. With a digital M you can check on the screen afterwards. The quality of the lenses is astounding. I'm not too interested in technical details (though I did read Reidreviews) but the Leica lenses have a footprint that just impresses. There are different characters amongst them, but all I have tried (and I did try/buy quite a few) just amazed me. And the feel and looks of the equipment is very satisfying if you are into decent industrial design and built quality. A very satisfying experience all around and I am looking forward to moving to the M9 soon. There's much more to it than what I wrote, but I think you should try yourself.

[diogenis]

Is it easier to shoot at f1.4 with autofocus or rangefinder? On my nikon 8/10 would be spot on using autofocus, if i change to manual focus it is like 2/10, really poor. Dont know why. I am a newcomer to photography about 4 years and i basically only used autofocus, in fact D200 is my first and only camera. [/QUOTe]

Leicas are designed with manual focus and so they excel on that.

dSLR is not a camera for manual focus, but they excel in AF. However not in all situations: for instance I bet that d200 will not be able to focus in the dark, but you can on an M8/9.

 

Please note the difference when you are talking d200, you get a crop sensor of 1.5x, the M8 crops @ 1.33x and the M9 is FF or 1:1. and this also affects lenses: on a M8 for instance a 35mm lens is like having a 50mm, but on a M9 it is 35mm

[noah_addis]

You can listen to and read all of the advice you want, but in the end it comes down to personal preference.

 

Some people say there is a long learning curve with Leicas. My experience was different.

 

I was a staff photographer at a major daily paper. I had a complete set of Nikon gear from 20/2.8 through 400/2.8. (I was always a prime-lens shooter.)

 

When my paper went digital in 2000 they started to provide us with gear. So I sold off the Nikon kit, went to B&H and bought two M6ttls and four lenses: 28/2.8, 35/1.4ASPH, 50/1.4 Pre-Asph and 75/1.4. (I later sold the 75 and traded the 28/2.8 for the 28/2 and have acquired other lenses subsequently.)

 

Right after I got the gear, without even shooting a test roll, I headed off to Cuba on a shooting trip. I felt instantly comfortable with the rangefinder viewing and focusing, and some of those images are still among my favorites, and I still use them in my portfolio.

 

I don't know if it's like this for everyone, but the pros I know who shoot with rangefinders were all hooked pretty much instantly upon trying them. They either work for your style of shooting or they don't, and you either love them or hate them.

 

I've used pretty much all the systems out there and for me the M rangefinder system just works. The cameras are small, fast and the lenses are incredible.

 

If you like prime lenses, don't often shoot above 90mm and appreciate the process of making a photograph, you may find you really enjoy shooting with a Leica. Manual rangefinder cameras, including the digital Leicas, do what I want in a camera, they stay out of my way. They do only what I tell them to do and don't try to override my decisions with lots of extra 'auto' features.

 

Focusing wide-open is easy. The rangefinder is very accurate and with static subjects there's no reason you can't get all of your frames in focus. Moving subjects are harder, but many of your photographs seem to be of relatively still subjects.

 

Leicas aren't only for journalistic work, many people use them for just the sort of travel and portrait work you do.

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[jonoslack]

HI Mark

Great post Noah

I bought an M7 and a couple of lenses a few months before the M8 appeared - I loved it . . but not going back to film, so I sold it and bought an M8. I still have SLR gear too, and I use it sometimes, but my real love is going out with an M9 in my left hand, ready to bring up to my eye at any moment.

 

I think the change to digital with the M series makes it a much better bet for landscape than a film M - the ability to check framing and focus straight away gives you the chance to get it right.

 

It'll take practice to get kids zooming around . . . but it's all possible.

 

It could be the start of a love affair - you should at least give yourself the chance

[smgorsch]

As the saying goes, "Just do it!"

 

I, too, am a non-professional physician who was accustomed to DSLRs. I have had the M8 for some time & am hopeful that an M9 will be forthcoming shortly. The portability & IQ trump everything else to my mind.

 

It's a wondrously effective small package that rivals or surpasses just about anything else, it's fun to use, elegant and durable.

 

You won't regret it & you won't go back.

 

Stefan