zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #101 Posted September 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Comparing apples to apples i.e automatic cameras, i don't see basic differences between the M7 and the M9 personally. At least, none of them do direct printing or coffee brewing fortunately. If you started with the M7 and made a "wishlist" of changes needed to arrive the M9, you would have to include at least ... add digital sensor to replace film add IR filtration to sensor add processor add LCD add memory card add menu system add variable ISO settings add variable white balance settings add setting for variable image sizes add setting for multiple file formats add variable sharpening settings add histogram function add exposure clipping indication add image magnification add image browsing and thumbnail functions add protect and delete functions add file compression setting add 6-bit coding to entire system add function to reduce vignetting add rear dial add rear buttons add various shutter release modes (soft, discrete) add memory capacity warning to viewfinder add multiple language settings add USB connectivity add complex software to catalog, adjust and process raw files add lithium battery add charger ... and I'm up to 28 items on this "wishlist" to create an M9. And this is a highly superficial list that doesn't get into the countless details of the actual engineering, which would cover many pages. It seems to me that we've added quite a bit of complexity (and cost) to the basic M. If someone had made that list, say, 10 years ago, I believe many people would have said it was excessive and silly, like adding a coffee brewing function. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Hi zlatkob, Take a look here M9 – A Giant Leap in the Right Direction – Still Some Distance To Go. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ulrikft Posted September 30, 2009 Share #102 Posted September 30, 2009 If you started with the M7 and made a "wishlist" of changes needed to arrive the M9, you would have to include at least ... add digital sensor to replace film add IR filtration to sensor add processor add LCD add memory card add menu system add variable ISO settings add variable white balance settings add setting for variable image sizes add setting for multiple file formats add variable sharpening settings add histogram function add exposure clipping indication add image magnification add image browsing and thumbnail functions add protect and delete functions add file compression setting add 6-bit coding to entire system add function to reduce vignetting add rear dial add rear buttons add various shutter release modes (soft, discrete) add memory capacity warning to viewfinder add multiple language settings add USB connectivity add complex software to catalog, adjust and process raw files add lithium battery add charger ... and I'm up to 28 items on this "wishlist" to create an M9. And this is a highly superficial list that doesn't get into the countless details of the actual engineering, which would cover many pages. It seems to me that we've added quite a bit of complexity (and cost) to the basic M. If someone had made that list, say, 10 years ago, I believe many people would have said it was excessive and silly, like adding a coffee brewing function. Indeed, so the people trying to be funny with their "HAH, NEXT THING YOU WANT IS A COFFEE BREWER!!!".. are just missing the point and shooting way off target. What is the leica m-spirit? Light weight, silent, small, rugged, effective, optically perfectionist cameras? Are "low light" a part of the leica mystique? what are and are not? I would love some of those that talk about the "m-spirit" to define it, as they seem to know accurately what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted September 30, 2009 Share #103 Posted September 30, 2009 How do you add CF in a MP sized body? This is Silly, if I wanted a Canon 5DMkII then I would buy one... Don't clutter My M! Simplify Simplify Simplify... I would rather have a Digi MP than a titanic like D3x. How about no auto anything? Now we have FF... then why 6-bit? Remove it. Screens are for wimps... remove it, just lcd for battery and pic count, and a ISO slide rule.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 30, 2009 Share #104 Posted September 30, 2009 What's the point of using CF cards exactly? I'm struggling with them for photo and audio purpose and prefer SDs for handling and security. Would faster read/write speeds of CF cards make an actual difference on the M9? Just curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #105 Posted September 30, 2009 How do you add CF in a MP sized body? Not a big deal, but CF cards are easier to handle and label than SD cards, which I find easier to lose. FWIW, the little Canon Powershots from the G1 through the G6 all used CF cards in bodies smaller than the MP, so it doesn't seem like a crazy request. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulrikft Posted September 30, 2009 Share #106 Posted September 30, 2009 What's the point of using CF cards exactly? I'm struggling with them for photo and audio purpose and prefer SDs for handling and security. Would faster read/write speeds of CF cards make an actual difference on the M9? Just curious. For me, the main advantage to CF-cards, is not speed, but handling. Easier to handle with gloves, cold fingers etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Andersson Posted September 30, 2009 Share #107 Posted September 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think a lot of this, especially the added electronic wizadry, whether users want it or not, is simply beyond Leica's capabilities at the moment. So much of it would have to be bought in, Leica would become so dependant on business relationships with third parties it would be a nightmare managing and implementing it. Much added complexity and opportunity to go wrong. Leica is not Nikon, Canon or Sony, it is a small company.... +1 Will there eventually be an M10? Of course there will, fate willing. Will it have improvements over the M9, a few of which were probably mentioned in the opening post? I don't see why Leica would produce it if it didn't as, presumably, it would be simpler just to stick to firmware upgrades for the M9 if there were nothing new. But the strength of feeling in this thread amply justifies the expectation that Leica will protect the M heritage and make sure that improvements are either almost universally welcomed, unobtrusive or can be disabled (and so become optional). And I doubt we'll have to worry about an M10 anytime soon as Leica will need to recoup the development costs for the M9 and, at a guess, continue to devote a good deal of the R&D budget to the S2. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #108 Posted September 30, 2009 I think a lot of this, especially the added electronic wizadry, whether users want it or not, is simply beyond Leica's capabilities at the moment. So much of it would have to be bought in, Leica would become so dependant on business relationships with third parties it would be a nightmare managing and implementing it. Much added complexity and opportunity to go wrong. Leica is not Nikon, Canon or Sony, it is a small company. Well, those are powerful arguments against the M8, M8.2 and M9 ... or at least were so just a few years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Root Posted September 30, 2009 Share #109 Posted September 30, 2009 The most important feature for an M10 to help the aging M crowd is autofocus and a series of autofocus M bayonet lenses with compatability with older M lenses. Is the M camera the only manual focus camera in the new market through medium format? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted September 30, 2009 Share #110 Posted September 30, 2009 Who says Leica can't make electronic Wizardry? The S2 proves they can: They have created a MF sized camera the size of a d3 or smaller that blows d3 or 5D 2 out of the water... And with the same famous ease of use. You have to question whether they want not if the can... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 30, 2009 Share #111 Posted September 30, 2009 Most of us use DSLRs already. We like them for what they do but we don't want the same for our DRFs. Again (and again) a rangefinder is a rangefinder. May look obsolete for some people, who cares? Coming on a rangefinder forum to explain that a DSLR is better is at best a waste of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 30, 2009 Share #112 Posted September 30, 2009 If you started with the M7 and made a "wishlist" of changes needed to arrive the M9, you would have to include at least .... Hardly basic differences if my view. Mostly electronic gizmos that i don't use personally. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_b Posted September 30, 2009 Share #113 Posted September 30, 2009 The most important feature for an M10 to help the aging M crowd is autofocus and a series of autofocus M bayonet lenses with compatability with older M lenses. Is the M camera the only manual focus camera in the new market through medium format? Says who? I enjoy the simplicity, compactness and light weight of Leica M. I'm going off heavy DSLRs since they are just that, heavy and bulky and you stick out like a sore thumb as a 'photographer' when I prefer to enjoy my days out. PS = live view - ha. Just not interested, as for video - no thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 30, 2009 Share #114 Posted September 30, 2009 For me, the main advantage to CF-cards, is not speed, but handling. Easier to handle with gloves, cold fingers etc. So faster read/write speeds of CF cards don't make an actual difference in your opinion? Ever got a bent pin in a CF slot? Or tried to remove a CF card from a recorder slot with or w/o gloves? Handling is a subjective matter obviously. If speed does not count, i don't see any relevance in replacing SD by CF cards personally. Adding a second slot for CF cards could be usefull certainly but i doubt there is enough room in the M9 for that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kschwarz Posted September 30, 2009 Share #115 Posted September 30, 2009 I think that ModernMan has it exactly right in his initial post, but he forgot automatic (ultrasonic) sensor cleaning, which is the most important M9 omission IMO. I traded my 5D for the 5DMII for this feature alone, and it was worth every penny. That said, I think that the M9 is pretty sweet as is. A huge advance for Leica and those that love to use their products, like me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamriman Posted September 30, 2009 Share #116 Posted September 30, 2009 If I had it my way, I'd have an M3 with FF sensor. Nothing more, nothing less. The M9 is close enough for me. I agree. Keep it simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted September 30, 2009 Share #117 Posted September 30, 2009 FWIW I don't think that any of the 'improvements' listed would actually help me take better photos (my bottom line) so ..... But on the subject of weather sealing - it is a double edged sword. I don't think that the description has any real (legal) meaning as it claims neither specific water resistance nor water-proofness - these both have CE (IP?) designations. Also, once water or damp has entered a camera with some degree of sealing it is difficult to get out (I've seen a 1D Canon with condensation behind its lcd cover despite being weather sealed). If anyone really feels that weather sealing is needed then they will have to define precisely what this means and how the lens bayonet could be retro-fitted with seals - so its really a none starter isn't it? My own solution to wet weather involves either 'proper' underwater housings (for 5D & 5DII) or plastic bags and gaffer tape (which provide a cheap, easy and quickly removable solution). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #118 Posted September 30, 2009 Hardly basic differences if my view. Mostly electronic gizmos that i don't use personally. YMMV. Those may not be basic differences to you, but they are fundamental and sweeping changes to a company building a camera. And yet Leica made every one of those 28 changes to arrive at the M9. Anyone making such a list 10 years ago would likely have been decried and ridiculed as asking for a camera that was nothing like a Leica, absolutely destructive of a 50+ year legacy, full of electronic gizmos that no one needed, not understanding the Leica concept, failing to keep it simple, asking for things that were too expensive and beyond Leica's small company abilities, really wanting a massive DSLR, and so on. It's funny how the extreme and outlandish becomes the status quo -- a paradigm shift. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted September 30, 2009 Share #119 Posted September 30, 2009 Not a big deal. Right... View finder, FF Shutter, Battery, CF, and a FF sensor (at a distance appropriate for focus) in a M7 sized container... Dream on. Have you seen the thread that dissected an M8... There's no room Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 30, 2009 Share #120 Posted September 30, 2009 Right... View finder, FF Shutter, Battery, CF, and a FF sensor (at a distance appropriate for focus) in a M7 sized container... Dream on. Have you seen the thread that dissected an M8... There's no room Yes, I've seen it. But technology advances, the future becomes the present, and the impossible becomes the possible. Have a little imagination. I say it's not a big deal because I don't think anyone feels CF is a big priority. I understand that it may be impractical to fit it in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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