ho_co Posted September 27, 2009 Share #41 Posted September 27, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I did not really understand his graphs. What are the segments that he refers to in his tests? The eight points of the Siemens star. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 27, 2009 Posted September 27, 2009 Hi ho_co, Take a look here More m9 from Erwin Puts. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted September 27, 2009 Share #42 Posted September 27, 2009 Did he take focus shift into account with his 35/1.4 asph? Yes. That's why he did the through-focus tests you mention. He specifically mentions focus shift to introduce the need for the magnifier: ... With wide open aperture the result is amazing: the zero position delivers the best result. Note that both extremes are less good The plus range gives generally the better performance: so it is best to focus a bit farther than indicated. With the aperture stopped down to f/2.8 the best position is the +2 focus: here we see in critical situations the effect of a slight focus shift. BUt it is also evident that even at 2.8 there is hardly room for focusing errors if the optimum performance is required ... What interests me is that he's calling for the magnifier even with a 35mm lens. According to the traditional rangefinder focusing charts, the need for the magnifier would start at greater focal lengths. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 27, 2009 Share #43 Posted September 27, 2009 ... I don't understand the reference to measuring the nominal distance between flange and sensor location with three different lenses. Surely that value is fixed for the specific camera and the lens mounted is irrelevant? ... As you said, Geoff, a camera's flange-to-sensor distance is fixed. In this case Erwin is indeed measuring the "back-focus" or flange-to-sensor distance of the individual lenses. It's important to notice that all the discrepancies are small and positive. Leica does not allow negative tolerances at the lens mount, on body or lens. That way, a lens can "wear in" instead of "wearing out." This level of exactness is, of course, important in a CRF because all its focus coupling is mechanical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthury Posted September 28, 2009 Share #44 Posted September 28, 2009 Erwin said: Stunning as the M9 pictures are, they must be put in context and then the Nikon D3x images are just better. Speechless ... dumbfounded ... reality sets in ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 28, 2009 Share #45 Posted September 28, 2009 Let's face it, Mr Puts is definitely a theorist, and probably a good one, I wouldn't know. I am a definitely a user and if I followed puts advise I would end up with the wrong camera for my purpose, which includes capture of excellent images, but goes a whole lot beyond just that. The single greatest influence on my image quality is me. I doubt Mr Puts is capable of assessing my influence on images. My clients, and others, are a far more reliable judge of that aspect of performance. Even then, they are prone to substantial error sometimes. As photographers, we can easily get very anal about our gear and ignore the obvious. I think the likes of Puts are better suited to advising or working for camera companies and leaving we photographers to real world application of cameras. If we devoted as much time to that as some do to 'Puts theorism', we may just end up better photographers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 28, 2009 Share #46 Posted September 28, 2009 ...What interests me is that he's calling for the magnifier even with a 35mm lens. According to the traditional rangefinder focusing charts, the need for the magnifier would start at greater focal lengths. There is no need for magnifiers at all at this focus length. For a CoC of 0.03mm, the requested RF base length of the 35/1.4 at full aperture is only 8.75mm where the effective base length of the body is 47.09mm. Choosing this very lens with its well known focus shift issues to test focusing accuracy is beyond me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 28, 2009 Share #47 Posted September 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The eight points of the Siemens star. Thanks Howard, it was that simple. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted September 28, 2009 Share #48 Posted September 28, 2009 Jeff . . . . does anyone care?Sorry, I shouldn't be cynical, but we all know that the M9 takes decent snaps . . . as does the D3x. But they're totally different beasts. The idea that anybody would choose one over the other because the snaps are a bit more decent boggles my brain! Jono I dont particularly care, because as you say they are totally different. I just bugged me that I could not figure out his segments. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 28, 2009 Share #49 Posted September 28, 2009 There is no need for magnifiers at all at this focus length. For a CoC of 0.03mm, the requested RF base length of the 35/1.4 at full aperture is only 8.75mm where the effective base length of the body is 47.09mm. Choosing this very lens with its well known focus shift issues to test focusing accuracy is beyond me. Just because he is also testing a new Zeiss Distagon 35mm for F mount... He has published a new (interesting) article on his blog: Blog The X1 and several components of the S2 are made by... Fuji !!! (Maybe also the X1's lens). Sanyo/Panasonic aren't involved... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 28, 2009 Share #50 Posted September 28, 2009 Just because he is also testing a new Zeiss Distagon 35mm for F mount... He has published a new (interesting) article on his blog: Blog The X1 and several components of the S2 are made by... Fuji !!! (Maybe also the X1's lens). Sanyo/Panasonic aren't involved... One shouldn't call something a fact, when it's only an assumption of Mr. Puts: "It is natural to assume that Fuji could be involved in this product as the company is also actively involved in the S2." Are Fuji (the film-producer...) and Fujitsu (the producer of electronics for the S2) identical? I just don't know, I was sure they weren't, but I may be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted September 28, 2009 Share #51 Posted September 28, 2009 The X1 and several components of the S2 are made by... Fuji !!! (Maybe also the X1's lens). Sanyo/Panasonic aren't involved... What he actually says is that "It is natural to assume that Fuji could be involved". Not the same as saying Fuji is involved. What's more interesting is that he says that the X1 sensor "is the same one employed in the Nikon D300". Which if its true, and not just a slip in translation, is very significant; you can't buy a Nikon sensor from Sony, even if it is manufactured by Sony, only from Nikon themselves. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted September 28, 2009 Share #52 Posted September 28, 2009 Any gaijin who thinks he understands the Japanese economy is...naive. Here's a pretty good try to crack the mafia-like connections-based system: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=24315311 "... Canon is tied to Nissan, Fujifilm to Toyota, and Nikon to Mitsubishi. It all has to do with Japanese business arrangements called "keiretsu". At one time, each of the big six held both a camera company and a car company. Several of them still do. Most also held a brewery. Here's the current lineup: Mitsubishi keiretsu contains Nikon, Kirin, and Mitsubishi automotive. Fuyo keiretsu contains Canon, Sapporo, and Nissan. Mitsui keiretsu contains Fujifilm, Asahi breweries, and Toyota. Sanwa keiretsu is heavy industry oriented. They divested themselves of the dead weight of Konica/Minolta's camera division (keeping the profitable office machinery division) and Kyocera. As far as I know they make neither cars nor beer. DKB contained Pentax, no beer, and Isuzu cars. Some bank mergers caused DKB to get rid of Pentax. Sumitomo keiretsu is Mazda cars, Olympus cameras, and I'm not sure about the beer. You most frequently hear of keiretsu when someone posts about Mitsubishi owning Nikon. (The other keiretsu are not that well known, and people just assume Canon, Pentax, Fujifilm, etc. are independent). Nikon is not "owned" by any corporation to which you commonly apply the name "Mitsubishi", but they are part of the Mitsubishi keiretsu. Basically, that means that Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ is a major investor in Nikon, and holds a bit more control over them than a bank would in the US or Europe. The bank can do things like moving executives from Nikon to any other Mitsubishi keiretsu company, such as Mitsubishi automotive, Kirin breweries, etc. as if they were part of the same company. This cannot happen at the "rank and file" employee level, and there are restrictions on the transfers of both money and property. There are six major keiretsu, but recent bank mergers have left the lines between them rather blurred. Fuyo keiretsu is centered around Mizuho Bank (formerly Fuji Bank) and contains Canon camera, as well as Nissan cars, and Sapporo beer. (I always throw the car connection in when I do a Keiretsu lecture, because I'm from Detroit, and the beer connection, because, well, it's fun). So, if you consider Fuji (the bank) they make Canon cameras, sensors, and IC manufacturing equipment. Fujifilm is part of the Mitsui keiretsu and their bank is Sumitomo Mitsui Bank (formerly Sakura Bank). Other prominent members of Mitsui Keiretsu are Toyota cars and Asahi Breweries. It also contains Toshiba, although Toshiba does not fab the Fujfilm sensors. Mitsui also contains Asahi Soft Drinks. Those are the folks who were the first to put coffee in a pop can, and have had American cultural icons Hank Aaron and Tiger Woods as spokesmen. The Mitsubishi keiretsu is centered around what was Mitsubishi bank (and they were once the only keiretsu not named after its bank). It contains Nikon, Mitsubishi automotive, and Kirin beer. Sanwa keiretsu contained two camera companies, both KM and Kyocera (who was licensed by Zeiss to make "Contax" cameras). Their bank was the UJF bank. Life got interesting when Mitsubishi bank (Nikon) merged with UFJ bank (KM and Kyocera) to form Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ. Before the bank merger, KM and Kyocera were more loosely tied to their keiretsu than Nikon was. Having them suddenly incorporated into the keiretsu left Mitsubishi with the alternatives of keeping all those marques, selling them off (as they did KM's camera operation to Sony, who exists outside the keiretsu system), merging them into Nikon, or shutting them down (as they did Contax). Pentax was is in DKB, along with Fujitsu and Hitachi. Nikon, although they're in Mitsubishi Keiretsu, uses Fujitsu for the main processors in their DSLRs, and Hitachi for the smaller control processors. The Keiretsu arrangements don't say "you must use 100% components from other members of the keiretsu". It's more a "first right of refusal" thing. The recent sale of Pentax to Hoya pretty much removes Pentax from the keiretsu system. Otherwise, the transfer of DKB assets to Mizuho bank (Fuyo kieretsu and Canon) would have left Pentax in the same situation as KM, the "poor cousin" after the merger. Olympus is in Sumitomo, along with Mazda (not sure about the beer or soft drink aspects). I mentioned three mergers. The last bank merger involved Sakura (Mitsui) bank and Sumitomo bank. This was rather uninteresting to photographers, as Fujifilm and Olympus have been closely tied for years, and sufficiently non-overlapping to not cause distress to the banks. But the merger caused ripples through the automotive industry, as it put Mazda and Nissan into the same bucket. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) Ford owns a controlling interest in Mazda, and Renault in Nissan, so they are held a bit more outside the keiretsu system than say Toyota or Mitsubishi. Sony exists outside the keiretsu system, but is big enough and diverse enough (from video to still cameras to home entertainment to semiconductor fab) to be considered a keiretsu of its own. Panasonic is more like a brand label of Matsushita. Matsushita, like Sony, exists outside the big six keiretsu." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 28, 2009 Share #53 Posted September 28, 2009 What he actually says is that "It is natural to assume that Fuji could be involved". Not the same as saying Fuji is involved. What's more interesting is that he says that the X1 sensor "is the same one employed in the Nikon D300". Which if its true, and not just a slip in translation, is very significant; you can't buy a Nikon sensor from Sony, even if it is manufactured by Sony, only from Nikon themselves. Sandy I think he actually meant to say Fujitsu instead of Fuji, as we already known that Fujitsu supplies the maestro chip for S2. Fujifilm has moved all of their digital camera facilities to Suzhou in China, even their SuperCCD fab is sold to Toshiba. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 28, 2009 Share #54 Posted September 28, 2009 Any gaijin who thinks he understands the Japanese economy is... ...similar to a simple photographic amateur who tries to understand Erwin Puts' tests. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted September 28, 2009 Share #55 Posted September 28, 2009 Mr. Puts has no idea what he is talking about in the digital world - he doesn't even know the difference between Fuji and Fujitsu! Remember his first M8-test? The M8 has rebel-quality! (he used JPGs) Fuji was the first digital partner of Leica and they were really unhappy with it - I don't think they want to collaborate anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted September 28, 2009 Share #56 Posted September 28, 2009 Erwin said: Speechless ... dumbfounded ... reality sets in ... i like the M9 but puts is just right. of course if we discuss IQ/camera weight, the M9 wins. but this holds for no other discipline. is it so hard to live up to reality? peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam.meier Posted September 28, 2009 Share #57 Posted September 28, 2009 Let's face it, Mr Puts is definitely a theorist, and probably a good one,(snip) Let me confess: I´m a dyscalculic, the graphs and numbers mean nothing to me. On different fora I read a lot of tech analyses of very knowledgable people. Fascinating and puzzling stuff. Not relevant to the emotional impact of photography, though. As photographers, we can easily get very anal about our gear and ignore the obvious. (snip). Best sentence of today! Comparing the D3X with a Leica M9 actually is interesting from an image quality point of view, but a higher MP sensor with better high ISO performance may be just the wrong choice for the typical Leica M shooter. Talk about street photography, talk about handheld shooting. Pick up any 24 MP camera, a Sony A900 with a Zeiss 135/1.8 lens e.g., and you will dust off that ole tripod and cable release to get the maximum out of that sensor. 17 MP may be just the sweet spot of FX sensors with the best resolution-handholdability ratio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 28, 2009 Share #58 Posted September 28, 2009 ... What's more interesting is that he says that the X1 sensor "is the same one employed in the Nikon D300". Which if its true, and not just a slip in translation, is very significant; you can't buy a Nikon sensor from Sony, even if it is manufactured by Sony, only from Nikon themselves. I had wondered about the LFI comment (7/2009, p 46) that "The 12.2 megapixel CMOS sensor [of the X1] is the same one that is found also in semi-professional dSLRs...." So, according to the magazine, the sensor is already in current dSLRs--an idea Mr Puts' contention supports. On the US Nikon pages, there is an interesting difference in copy between the D300 and the D300S sensor descriptions: The D300 page says that "Nikon's exclusive digital image processing system advances DX-format image quality to new levels." The D300S page says that the same sensor "Delivers stunning high resolution, low-noise images with striking detail and tonal gradation." That is, the later page no longer claims that the sensor is exclusive to Nikon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthury Posted September 28, 2009 Share #59 Posted September 28, 2009 Exactly the thing that I picked up on... I'm in dire need of a 1.4 35mm lens in F mount. I'd be all over that lens if ever released. Is a ZF or ZM lens? Is this a prerelease announcement made thru Mr. Erwin? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
psss Posted September 28, 2009 Share #60 Posted September 28, 2009 i don't need to read puts to see from m9 raw files that the m9 has a severe moire problem....the "extra" detail is mostly destroyed by color moire clearly visible in fabric and even hair (black hair in sunlight looks awful)....this has nothing to do with d3x or any online review....get some raw files, shoot the camera, see for yourself.... the m8 had the same problem but somehow less pronounced....of course software CAN take care of the moire in processing but this really is a solution to a problem that in a way is the key advantage of the m9...lack of AA filter and better sharpness, detail.... so shoot softer and sharpen afterwards or shoot sharp and be forced to destroy the detail because it is contaminated?.... the other point is that the larger sensor makes critical focus even harder to achieve.... the m9 pushes the envelope in many ways....for me it unfortunately does not provide the answers....there are other options which provide (yes) better image quality....but if someone needs the smallest and the RF handling, it still is the only game in town...somehow the m8 starts to look better though.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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