wlaidlaw Posted October 1, 2009 Share #41 Posted October 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I agree. Getting torqued up about sapphire glass when a $10 screen protector will do the same thing is, ehhhm, surprising. I'm not sure Leica needed to go to OLED screens, but honestly, a size upgrade using LCD technology would have been very useful. The 2.5" screen is barely adequate for anything more than reading menu settings. John, I do have to admit, getting rid of the film on the M8 screen when I went to Sapphire was a real relief and the sapphire screen seemed both sharper and brighter than my original early M8 one. Now I believe that Leica did change the whole LCD on the upgrade, so that might have been the case. I was using Hi-Tec self healing films, so it may be that other films degrade the image less. The Hi-Tec is quite thick with a matte finish. Having got use to how bright and sharp the screen is on my iPhone, I just know that Leica could have done better. Panasonic owns quite a few patents on OLED screens (used in TV's, pro level video cameras and their G range digitals), so I am sure Leica could have done some crawling and got the rights for a nice little 2.5 inch one to use, without having to re-design the rear clamshell. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Hi wlaidlaw, Take a look here So what about scratched M9 LCD screens?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wilfredo Posted October 1, 2009 Share #42 Posted October 1, 2009 If they had, people would have complain that the cost was too high and that they would prefer to pay their body less and spend a few dollars for an extra protection. Do I understand this right, the M8.2 comes with the Saphire LCD, but the $7000.00 M9 doesn't? Is an upgrade available? Maybe another $1000.00 $$$$$$$???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilfredo Posted October 1, 2009 Share #43 Posted October 1, 2009 Screen Patronus. I'd bet the farm that in a year or so, Leica will offer a M9.2 «upgrade» with sapphire screen and a little top LCD to check battery status and number of shots, plus some obscure new function thrown in for the sake of it. And you will have to fork another $1,000 for that. Haven't we seen it before? You just answered my question. I'm more and more convinced about keeping my M8 clunker :-) BTW, the Luigi Half Case has done a wonderful job keeping my M8 LCD screen free of scratches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_newell Posted October 2, 2009 Share #44 Posted October 2, 2009 I don't disagree. I ripped off my Zagg/IS protectors and bought GGS (not Giotto) protectors, which are a glass laminate of some kind. I haven't compared them side by side to a sapphire glass screen, but I'd be surprised if they're noticeably different. (?) They certainly were much, much, much more affordable! John, I do have to admit, getting rid of the film on the M8 screen when I went to Sapphire was a real relief and the sapphire screen seemed both sharper and brighter than my original early M8 one. Now I believe that Leica did change the whole LCD on the upgrade, so that might have been the case. I was using Hi-Tec self healing films, so it may be that other films degrade the image less. The Hi-Tec is quite thick with a matte finish. Having got use to how bright and sharp the screen is on my iPhone, I just know that Leica could have done better. Panasonic owns quite a few patents on OLED screens (used in TV's, pro level video cameras and their G range digitals), so I am sure Leica could have done some crawling and got the rights for a nice little 2.5 inch one to use, without having to re-design the rear clamshell. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKK dan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share #45 Posted October 2, 2009 Back to plastic is clearly a quality decrease. Leica though seems to be aware of the issue and is preparing something. Their customer support sends out convincing standard answers to inquiries. Saying something like nothing's planned, but something could be on the way and it's however no mistake to buy an M9 now as you'll always be able to upgrade. Well, I don't want to upgrade. I want that promised land camera in the best possible condition now. I have to admit the LCD doesn't seem to be of the usual shabby quality. Still Leica, don't downgrade your cameras once you've upgraded them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jruffolo Posted October 2, 2009 Share #46 Posted October 2, 2009 I've read about some people having issues when removing the Giottos Aegis screens that if they apply too much heat and are not careful enough, the M8/9 screen cover will come off as well. Has anyone considered having a sapphire plate cut/ground down to the M9 screen measurements and using that as a replacement? This doesn't seem too unrealistic; the coating would be the only thing to consider. From what I can see from stock prices, a 50mmx50mm sheet of 1mm sapphire glass runs around $175us, plus whatever costs would be for having pieces custom cut, and then whatever the costs for coating would be; I can laser cut the adhesive out of a black 3M adhesive substrate which would cost next to nothing. When I get my M9, this is something that I think I would like to seriously look into. I'm sure that prices for the cut sapphire sheets and coating would be lower if there are multiple pieces ordered. Providing that this is something doable, how many people would be interested in something like this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 2, 2009 Share #47 Posted October 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've read about some people having issues when removing the Giottos Aegis screens that if they apply too much heat and are not careful enough, the M8/9 screen cover will come off as well. Has anyone considered having a sapphire plate cut/ground down to the M9 screen measurements and using that as a replacement? This doesn't seem too unrealistic; the coating would be the only thing to consider. From what I can see from stock prices, a 50mmx50mm sheet of 1mm sapphire glass runs around $175us, plus whatever costs would be for having pieces custom cut, and then whatever the costs for coating would be; I can laser cut the adhesive out of a black 3M adhesive substrate which would cost next to nothing. When I get my M9, this is something that I think I would like to seriously look into. I'm sure that prices for the cut sapphire sheets and coating would be lower if there are multiple pieces ordered. Providing that this is something doable, how many people would be interested in something like this? Me. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKK dan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share #48 Posted October 2, 2009 I've read about some people having issues when removing the Giottos Aegis screens that if they apply too much heat and are not careful enough, the M8/9 screen cover will come off as well. Has anyone considered having a sapphire plate cut/ground down to the M9 screen measurements and using that as a replacement? This doesn't seem too unrealistic; the coating would be the only thing to consider. From what I can see from stock prices, a 50mmx50mm sheet of 1mm sapphire glass runs around $175us, plus whatever costs would be for having pieces custom cut, and then whatever the costs for coating would be; I can laser cut the adhesive out of a black 3M adhesive substrate which would cost next to nothing. When I get my M9, this is something that I think I would like to seriously look into. I'm sure that prices for the cut sapphire sheets and coating would be lower if there are multiple pieces ordered. Providing that this is something doable, how many people would be interested in something like this? It's an ingenious suggestion and makes furthermore very clear that the price difference between sapphire glass or not is a simple marketing ploy by Leica. It's rather an intentional downgrading of the camera for future upgrades and more sales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jruffolo Posted October 2, 2009 Share #49 Posted October 2, 2009 As I don't have my camera yet; could someone possibly provide me with the height and width of the m8/m9 coverglass in mm so that I can start researching this? I'll overlay this / scale with an image of the M9 back in autocad to get the radii of the glass corners and send the file in to get a general quote on the sapphire price; then I just have to look into coating options. When my camera arrives I will make up a prototype. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 2, 2009 Share #50 Posted October 2, 2009 I agree. Getting torqued up about sapphire glass when a $10 screen protector will do the same thing is, ehhhm, surprising. I'm not sure Leica needed to go to OLED screens, but honestly, a size upgrade using LCD technology would have been very useful. The 2.5" screen is barely adequate for anything more than reading menu settings. Perhaps some of us are getting "torqued up" about sapphire glass because we don't think you should need to use a $10 screen protector on a $7000 camera any more than you should need to use a $10 clip on cover on a $7000 Nikon DSLR (you don't, by the way). Those of us with sapphire screens on our M8.2/M8u's will (for the most part) confirm it's a worthwhile enhancement which could have been provided as standard at much lower cost than it will likely cost to upgrade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 2, 2009 Share #51 Posted October 2, 2009 John, Size of M8 sapphire glass is 55.17mm x 42.90mm. I would estimate the radius of the corners at 2.25mm. I don't have a radius tool with me in France - can anyone measure the radius more accurately? Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jruffolo Posted October 2, 2009 Share #52 Posted October 2, 2009 Thank you Wilson; One more quick question; do you have a guesstimate of around how thick the sapphire is? Also, around what is the + tolerance between the glass and the frame? Thanks John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 2, 2009 Share #53 Posted October 2, 2009 Thank you Wilson;One more quick question; do you have a guesstimate of around how thick the sapphire is? Also, around what is the + tolerance between the glass and the frame? Thanks John John, I would guesstimate the glass at around1.5mm. The tolerances to the frame are very tight. My set of feeler gauges has gone AWOL (last seen being used by my ex-son in law, resetting the spark plug on my chain saw, so I guess either walked in his pocket or is maturing somewhere in the garden). Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted October 2, 2009 Share #54 Posted October 2, 2009 That whole thread really sounds like a grannies tupperware meeting ... "and here is our newest Saphire glass camera ... oooohhh" Didn't most of you guys shoot film for most of your life ? Wonder how you survived all these long years without a LCD ... If scratches are that much of a concern, that probably means you spend too much time chimping or fondling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 2, 2009 Share #55 Posted October 2, 2009 That whole thread really sounds like a grannies tupperware meeting ... "and here is our newest Saphire glass camera ... oooohhh" Didn't most of you guys shoot film for most of your life ? Wonder how you survived all these long years without a LCD ... If scratches are that much of a concern, that probably means you spend too much time chimping or fondling. Have you watched pro's shooting recently Yanidel? I have and I was surprised to see that they were chimping nearly every shot, checking image, clipping and histogram. These were older pro's who will have spent most of their life shooting film. If someone provides with a good new type of tool that can improve your imaging, you would have to be a fool not to use it. Why do you think so many pro's used to use Polaroid backs. I was talking to one in August who was using a Leaf back on an Alpa. I asked him how it was, as I have always fancied an Alpa and his main complaint was the poor quality and small size of the LCD, as it is not the sort of camera you use much tethered. He mainly uses it for architecture shots. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericperlberg Posted October 2, 2009 Share #56 Posted October 2, 2009 If scratches are that much of a concern, that probably means you spend too much time chimping or fondling. Who are you to judge how I want to work with my camera? Perhaps instead of wasting your time reading threads you're not interested in why aren't you out shooting? Kind regards, e Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jruffolo Posted October 2, 2009 Share #57 Posted October 2, 2009 Ok, I've just drawn up a spec based on those dimensions (- some room for tolerance; the dimensions and the 2.25mm radius looked right on when overlaid with an image of the M9's back) and sent it out to get a quote for the custom sapphire window. Will keep you guys updated on the progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted October 2, 2009 Share #58 Posted October 2, 2009 Perhaps instead of wasting your time reading threads you're not interested in why aren't you out shooting? Kind regards, e Please, be more creative ... this one has been said a thousand times on this forum. Actually, I shoot whenever I can, but a lumbago prevents me to do so this week and left me in bed. Of course, this is the internet you could not know, no big deal. Sorry, I will not share the great shots I took of my cats from my bed ... And I do care because since the M9 has been released, I see claims all over the board on missing features, many not strictly related to shooting. As a M owner, I have my say in what I would like/would not like the M to become. Saphire glass is a fancy little thing, if Leica succeeds taking some cost out by not including it, fine with me. I obviously don't ask you to agree with that, this is my opinion, 2 cents if you prefer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanidel Posted October 2, 2009 Share #59 Posted October 2, 2009 Have you watched pro's shooting recently Yanidel? I have and I was surprised to see that they were chimping nearly every shot, checking image, clipping and histogram. These were older pro's who will have spent most of their life shooting film. If someone provides with a good new type of tool that can improve your imaging, you would have to be a fool not to use it. Why do you think so many pro's used to use Polaroid backs. I was talking to one in August who was using a Leaf back on an Alpa. I asked him how it was, as I have always fancied an Alpa and his main complaint was the poor quality and small size of the LCD, as it is not the sort of camera you use much tethered. He mainly uses it for architecture shots. Wilson Wilson, my claim was not agains LCD's nor modernity. But if weird to see how suddenly a Saphire glass can become the key purchase criteria for some, knowing that 15 years ago there were not even LCD's ... As for Pros, it is all over the place. Lot of medium format, film, digital, I don't think we can generalize. What I do know from my amateur experience is many times when I chimp in the street (and yes I do), I miss shots. Must be the same for others I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKK dan Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share #60 Posted October 2, 2009 Wilson, my claim was not agains LCD's nor modernity. But if weird to see how suddenly a Saphire glass can become the key purchase criteria for some, knowing that 15 years ago there were not even LCD's ... As for Pros, it is all over the place. Lot of medium format, film, digital, I don't think we can generalize. What I do know from my amateur experience is many times when I chimp in the street (and yes I do), I miss shots. Must be the same for others I guess. Then why did Leica offer it in the first place with M8.2? There is a demand. Film = no LCD = no need for cover. No problem with that. But if the LCD screen cover is made out of plastic, why not the whole body? Durability is a keyword, as marketed by Leica. Doesn't concern the screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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