Vivek Iyer Posted September 14, 2009 Share #141 Posted September 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I actually think this issue is inportant to reflect upon. a reviewer should/must be independent, no matter how good or bad his/her reviews are. If rewieing a product after having been wined and dined by the manufacturer one breeches the neccesities of any reviewer, wether, cars, cameras, electronics etc. etc. And I am aware that these tactices happen a lot, and all over different product groups. A good reviewer should go to these meeting but.. pay for his/her own bills, then a reviewer becomes 100% credible. I know Reids reviews as well, actually I have a abbonement on them, I like them, I think personally he is a standup guy... but... but! taking part of these manufacturer sponsored trips will cause other people to question the actual reviewer, and in my perception .... rightfully so. This is exactly the thinking that brought about this "sourgrapes" wrath and the stunt. Don't tick them "reviewers" off! Otherwise.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 14, 2009 Posted September 14, 2009 Hi Vivek Iyer, Take a look here The Sour Grapes Duo. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
nugat Posted September 14, 2009 Share #142 Posted September 14, 2009 Threads should only be closed as a last resort IMHO. Unless they breach what Andreas or a mod feel to be legal, or bad taste boundaries they should be allowed to stay open - again IMHO. If a thread is no longer interesting, people will stop posting to it. Ok, I now share Mitch's view and believe this thread ran its course. There is a serious danger of trolljacking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted September 14, 2009 Share #143 Posted September 14, 2009 Most of the mainstream press I imagine. Certainly I'd expect Amateur Photographer in the UK and Reponses Photo and Chasseur d'Image in France to have multi page reviews. I can't imagine it being ignored by the German photographic press either. Maybe nugat isn't so 'clueless' after all. what I notice about that those invited run Online reviews. I never think of them as leica loyal.. thats difference Normally people who read magazines, wouldnt be interested of antique thing anyway. Do you understand what Im trying to say? Rangefinder users seem to know how to use internet. Thats why a lot of noise we've seen for a few years now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 14, 2009 Share #144 Posted September 14, 2009 Do you understand what Im trying to say? Not really no. All of the magazines I mentioned have run reviews of Leica bodies and lenses in the past and I expect will continue to do so in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 14, 2009 Share #145 Posted September 14, 2009 Not really no. All of the magazines I mentioned have run reviews of Leica bodies and lenses in the past and I expect will continue to do so in the future. Well, if you read the German magazines you're bound to be disappointed. Many of the Leica lenses (M and R) don't score very high. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 14, 2009 Share #146 Posted September 14, 2009 One point no one seems to have mentioned about is the difference between online journalism and serious product review. I think Sean is hurt because he wants to do both well, which is nearly impossible IMO. Leica clearly knows about the criticality of being the first to break the news on web for journalists so they give their preferences to a chosen group, otherwise, I really don't see how important it is to be among the first ones to put up a product review. Sean could simply take his time, if I'm one of his loyal readership who weigh his opinion heavily, I can always wait. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted September 14, 2009 Share #147 Posted September 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) One point no one seems to have mentioned about is the difference between online journalism and serious product review. I think Sean is hurt because he wants to do both well, which is nearly impossible IMO. Leica clearly knows about the criticality of being the first to break the news on web for journalists so they give their preferences to a chosen group, otherwise, I really don't see how important it is to be among the first ones to put up a product review. Sean could simply take his time, if I'm one of his loyal readership who weigh his opinion heavily, I can always wait. very well said my english is not so advanced and it is difficult to explain subtle nuances. But I try not excuse it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted September 14, 2009 Share #148 Posted September 14, 2009 Not really no. All of the magazines I mentioned have run reviews of Leica bodies and lenses in the past and I expect will continue to do so in the future. to market through PAPER is antiquated way the way to reach new and existing Leica customers is best to do through Web. It is effective and cheap way. Old 60-80 guys might be potential customers of all magazine readers. But reality is different and we are living in digital age. Even 80 years old use internet, phone. Thats great. Who wanna buy 5500 euros m9 and new noctilux after reading a magazine? it'd require a lot of conviction, condisderation whether buy or not. Usually forums help people with feedback often sincere and post some pictures. It was fun to watch films from factory tours from some online sites. My point is that for most journalists is easy to misunderstand conception of rangefinder. How convince other that 5500€ is not expensive while you can get Sony for 1/3 price? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 14, 2009 Share #149 Posted September 14, 2009 ...Who wanna buy 5500 euros m9 and new noctilux after reading a magazine?... Why not if it's a magazine you trust? Not really my case to be honest but i know how some reviewers work and i'm pleased to know their advice before deciding to purchase or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 14, 2009 Share #150 Posted September 14, 2009 I actually think this issue is inportant to reflect upon. a reviewer should/must be independent, no matter how good or bad his/her reviews are. If rewieing a product after having been wined and dined by the manufacturer one breeches the neccesities of any reviewer, wether, cars, cameras, electronics etc. etc. And I am aware that these tactices happen a lot, and all over different product groups. A good reviewer should go to these meeting but.. pay for his/her own bills, then a reviewer becomes 100% credible. I know Reids reviews as well, actually I have a abbonement on them, I like them, I think personally he is a standup guy... but... but! taking part of these manufacturer sponsored trips will cause other people to question the actual reviewer, and in my perception .... rightfully so. I agree with you. What you describe is the point of view of a reviewer as a journalist and critic. Someone who has no interest in the subject he describes and criticizes. He just reports the facts and makes up his opinion according to what he can report. And I agree also to Barjohn's view that anybody in this position should avoid even the slightest possibility that his readers think his review has been bought - even if it is not bought at all. Though I think that this journalist's and critic's point of view is not the only one which is possible. I can imagine someone who first of all is a professional user of photographic instruments. He is just a photographer. He is able to think beyond his everyday work and so he likes to write and publish about his experience. From someone like this you cannot demand the same interestless point of view. You must allow him, that his preferences from his professional work as a photographer "infects" his writing. He has an interest: to use photographic instruments to his likings. Now imagine someone who out of practical, artistic or just emotional reasons opts for a rangefinder camera. He uses rangefinders for his work, thinks about them and writes about them. It is his aim to make them better than they were, following even the demands of digital photography. So he is one of the first and one of few who cares about a digital Epson rangefinder camera. He also cares for the lenses which can be used on rangefinder cameras whatever their brandings and origins may be. On the other hand he is factual: just giving the information he can give, striving for systematic, reliable, comparable facts and showing all the facts in his writings he can see - even if he does not always see all of those facts. His aim stays: getting an improvement for rangefinder technology. In his writings he makes proposals for better solutions, discusses different ways to solve problems, always giving reasons out of his practical experience why he thinks one soulution better than the other. Now imagine a producer of rangefinder cameras starting to listen, what this man thinks and writes. They have an interest in his thinking and writing, for they know their customers won't think completely different. This producer happens to be Leica and Leica is going to present their latest product to the public. They put some of the ideas and proposals the professsional photographer and writer had given in the past in the new product; other proposals they put aside, having their own reasons. Now imagine Leica invites just the man who has thought and written a lot more than others about digital rangefinders because they want to know what he thinks about it and wish as well that he thinks good about it and spreads this word in public. Would this mean Leica is "buying" somebody? What is our demand for the professional photographer and publisher who is invited by Leica out of these reasons? Shall we say to him: you are nothing else than a journalist and critic - so stay away without any interest? Shall we stifle all the interests of a professional user of digital rangefinders completely? We could also say: o.k., nobody stands in your way to go on with your telling the facts, evaluating them and making your proposals for bettering them after the product has been disclosed to the public and is regularly for sale. There is no reason to start with all this before the date of making the product public. If Leica invites you to prepare to do for so before the very date, you endanger your role of somebody just making his experiences, thinking and publishing about what he finds out. So it all comes down to timing. I think Leica has been more lucky than tricky to follow a timetable which led up to an event, which in reality was none at all. This countdown to a "decisive moment" helped a lot to stir a big demand for the new product. I wish that all the people who worked on it during the last years and will go on working for it, will profit from it. A professional user of rangefinders and writer about rangefinders who has a lot of interest to see rangefinders improved in the long run doesn't fit in this timetable. Patience is his ressort. He needs time to make his experience, to evaluate them and to disclose them to the public. He will have many open questions which show the way for new and better solutions. The profit out of this professional patience will be on the user's as well as on Leica's side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #151 Posted September 14, 2009 Sean, from the link you provided... "Sean Reid has stated his intention to proceed with a lawsuit against The Online Photographer (which means me, since TOP is not an LLC), so I will not be communicating with him except through our respective attorneys." Is this true? If so something that would quickly have disappeared from view will drag on, and on, and on. As I mentioned earlier, I would never have known about the article unless you had publicised it. No, it is not true and I'm still trying to find out why Mike would publish that. There is not now nor has there ever been a lawsuit from me or RR towards Mike or TOP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #152 Posted September 14, 2009 I don't think the question of lawsuit is true ... You are correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #153 Posted September 14, 2009 Regardless of what happened with the M8, French's basic point is that it is a two-edge sword for an independent reviewer to be included in the exclusive pre-release group. On the one hand there is the desire to be the first with information, but it may also create an appearance of currying favor by the OEM. This is not a remarkable statement. Reid, whose independent reviews are his livelihood, has the choice of participating with the OEM in such a manner, or waiting to receive an off the shelf model. I would say that for Reid, and reinforced by his actions, the appearance of independence is more important than the scoop factor. I have no axe to grind with Reid, and have paid for and enjoyed his reviews. I would encourage him to cease this embarrassing lapse in judgment and rethink the ground-rules he needs to have for his relations with the OEs. BB Which actions are those? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #154 Posted September 14, 2009 I agree, which is why I now wonder if Sean started this thread in an attempt to set and control the agenda and has no intention in pursuing any litigation. Hey Steve, Don't you want to fact check Mike's blog's post before assuming a conspiracy, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #155 Posted September 14, 2009 ..that is why I said it is a stunt. Rockwell style?! A stunt by whom? Have I published something about being sued by Mike? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #156 Posted September 14, 2009 A bunch of so called mates having a falling out again................... to our amusement they air their dirty laundry. Actually, from my end, the heated discussions between Michael, Mike and myself were all in private. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #157 Posted September 14, 2009 Really can't figure out what Sean is upset about here - or why he is choosing to make it a topic on the forum. Someone who spends a fair amount of time reviewing products needs to develop a thicker skin. The reviewer is simply being reviewed here. Now we're on topic at least. The problem is that Howard, as confirmed to me in an e-mail, has never read the reviews. He "reviewed" something he had never read. That's a problem, in my view, especially from someone with his reported credentials. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #158 Posted September 14, 2009 Tim -- Your points all seem right to me. I don't know what Sean said about the M9, but taking a little vacation in Germany from the manufacturer isn't the best way to guarantee objectivity. The sour grapes sound like Seans. Dan Not much of a vacation - mostly meetings and some time shooting. Most of my M9 testing was done in the USA and Canada. Press trips are common for all reviewers of all kinds of things, they don't affect objectivity unless one is not very committed to it to start with. In other words, there's nothing a press trip could offer me that would be worth the damage to one's reputation which would come from false reporting. I do pride myself on being as thorough, fair and objective as I can be. That's not to say any one review of mine can possibly cover everything about a camera or lens but I try hard to describe the thing accurately. For Mr. French to malign my work without having read it does indeed piss me off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #159 Posted September 14, 2009 Overall, I wouldn't make any judgments of their disagreements without hearing all sides of the story — My gosh, now that's a novel approach. What if Sean didn't do what Mike said? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #160 Posted September 14, 2009 MIke Johnston has posted the follow gracious update on TOP: —Mitch/Potomac, MD Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project Not only have I not sued Mike I also never announced to him that I was going to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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