davidbaddley Posted February 7, 2011 Share #241 Posted February 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Erl - I've been working, almost daily, with an M6 (and then an MP) since 1990. Although I have owned other cameras, at least 95% of my work during this time was made with my Leicas, both because of the character of the images and because they're fun to use. I got my M9 in November, and began working exclusively with it. My impression of the shutter lag came directly from the feel of the camera (compared to what I'm used to) and the small differences that I noticed within my work. Although I've been signed up for a while, I must admit I'm not a regular reader of the Forum. I found this thread as the result of a search that I did because I became aware of this issue directly through my experience with the M9 itself. My research was an attempt to find an explanation for the slight but very real shutter lag that is manifesting itself in my work, and which instantly appeared the day I switched from the M6/MP to the M9. Again it's not a huge problem, and it only affects a small amount of my work. I wish that this lag wasn't there, but I now understand that it's a necessary evil of the technology. I really dig working with the M9 and I have no regrets. This thread has done a wonderful job of answering my questions, thank you very much. - David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Hi davidbaddley, Take a look here M9 shutter lag?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
erl Posted February 7, 2011 Share #242 Posted February 7, 2011 David, thanks for answering my query. I do understand what I think you are saying. I had, for most of my working life, noticed the "considerable" shutter lag on my Hasselblads. I frequently used them as a competitor to 35mm shooters (I needed larger images). I quickly developed the reflexes to anticipate the 'decisive moment' and nearly always got it by allowing for what I new was the shutter lag. I suspect this is what you (and all of us!) are doing with the M9 lag, such as it is. I agree that the M9 sounds and feels slower than M6/7's, but I have never come up with my own hard evidence to support that feeling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjames9142 Posted February 9, 2011 Share #243 Posted February 9, 2011 I am really surprised that a possible 80 milli-second is bothering people. What shots are being lost ? It's not a sports camera, really. The first day I had the m9, I took it to a basketball court and took three pictures -- they all captured the action at its peak. The limiting factor could be one's own reflex time. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96390-m9-shutter-lag/?do=findComment&comment=1582933'>More sharing options...
erl Posted February 9, 2011 Share #244 Posted February 9, 2011 I am really surprised that a possible 80 milli-second is bothering people. What shots are being lost ? It's not a sports camera, really. The first day I had the m9, I took it to a basketball court and took three pictures -- they all captured the action at its peak. The limiting factor could be one's own reflex time. I am inclined to agree with you, although I don't know where the 80 milliseconds figure comes from. Numbers never mean a lot to me. However your pic above demonstrate nothing about 'peak of action'. All I see is what was in front of your lens when the shutter finally tripped. Nothing indicating it was 'peak.' It needs a shot something like the moment of impact between a bat and ball that can be clearly seen in contact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted February 9, 2011 Share #245 Posted February 9, 2011 Hi I think there is about 300ms in normal people lag in your visual system between movement of a object you are looking at and perception (i.e. detection) in your brian. You have to compensate for that when you shoot the peak of action. I'm not sure if the delay in the audio path is the same/similar. If you are using the click of the shutter to datum the photograph this would alter things. Noel P.S. I dont have an M9 or M8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted February 9, 2011 Share #246 Posted February 9, 2011 [quote=erl;1605628 It needs a shot something like the moment of impact between a bat and ball that can be clearly seen in contact. I shot like that is just dumb luck or incredible timing of the shooters reaction time and camera lag which comes with practice. If you were to wait for the ball & bat to make contact with each other you would miss the shot. The ball would have already started on it's way. If you have that fast of a reaction time we should call you Grasshopper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 9, 2011 Share #247 Posted February 9, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) David: This creates the impression that the shutter has fired immediately, while in fact incorporating a lag. You are absolutely right. I think that can only truly be answered by a carefully controlled, measured test. Not necessary. Every Leica M photographer who use(d) film based cameras is able to confirm Davids view. I think there is about 300ms in normal people lag in your visual system between movement of a object you are looking at and perception (i.e. detection) in your brian. May be. But anyway, film based Leica M cameras are superior to any (D)SLRs regarding the shutter lag. Recent digital Leica M cameras aren't. And yes, it CAN affect the result in some cases. Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyalf Posted February 10, 2011 Share #248 Posted February 10, 2011 Hi, I have the last two years taken photos of jumping arctic chair at the same place during the same time of the year. At 2009 with a D700, and 2010 with a M9. I had a little more success with the M9 than the D700. Its was not possible to anticipate when the fish would jump .I know this is not any test, but for me its good enough. Btw I had fewer hits by using high speed continuous mode with D700 than with single shots. Back in the days I tried for some time to photograph char rising to mayflies. At that time the delay of the Nikon FA was a real problem. So lag can of course make a difference. Again, I don't doubt any of the numbers quoted, but in real world photography I find the M9 near instant. I am sorry to say that I have not tried the mechanical Ms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 10, 2011 Share #249 Posted February 10, 2011 According to my measurements, the shutter lag of the M9 is indeed 0.08 sec. You can do the measurement yourself (and compare with other camera's) Here are the steps [1] You need two digital stopwatches, each with 0.01 sec. resolution. [2] Take one stop watch in each of your hands and zero them [3] Press the start buttons at the same time and stop them at the same time after some seconds [4] Repeat this several times. This will give you an indication how accurate pressing buttons goes with two hands: A variation of 0.01 or 0.02 seconds can be expected. To make sure that the hands do not have a systematic difference in timing (for instance the right hand always pressing first) you can interchange the stopwatches while running after starting them and stop them with the other hand. In my case that makes no difference. [5] Set up your camera on a tripod and focus as close as possible on a place on the table which you have marked [6] Put one of the stopwatches on that place on the table after setting to zero [7] Put one hand on your camera, with your thumb on the shutter button [8] Hold the stopwatch on the spot on the table with the display well lit and facing the camera [9] Press the shutter button and the stopwatch button at the same time [10] Now you have a photograph of the stopwatch showing the shutter lag with a precision of you being able to press two buttons at the same time with two hands (see point 4 above) and with a resolution of 0.01 seconds. [11] Repeat this several times and average. For me this gave 0.08 seconds with an M9, which is fast enough for most applications. You can test your ability to press the shutter at the right time, by trying to photograph somebody walking, right at the moment the heel touches the ground. After a while you get a feel of the 0.08 seconds and build it in in your timing to get it right and shutter lag is no issue anymore. Remember: eye-hand delays are about 0.2 seconds, but while anticipating a moment, that is not of importance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 10, 2011 Share #250 Posted February 10, 2011 For me this gave 0.08 seconds with an M9 Thank you! For comparison: Leica M3: 0.016s Canon EOS 1D Mark II: 0.04s Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjames9142 Posted February 10, 2011 Share #251 Posted February 10, 2011 Erl -- Does this do it ? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96390-m9-shutter-lag/?do=findComment&comment=1584189'>More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 10, 2011 Share #252 Posted February 10, 2011 Erl -- Does this do it ? Please stop posting those useless shots in this thread. They don't help in any way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted February 10, 2011 Share #253 Posted February 10, 2011 Erl -- Does this do it ? Sorry! No it does not. See test procedure above by Lindolfi. That is the sort of test that does work. There are too many variables in the photos you display. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjames9142 Posted February 10, 2011 Share #254 Posted February 10, 2011 Erl, Perhaps it's useless, but photographing stopwatches has its limitations. I tried this out the first day I got the M9. The second picture was an attempt to photograph a ball going into a basketball net. I know I couldn't have done this with an XI, which is completely useless for live action. The ball may be three inches from where I thought it might have been, but the peak of that particular action was caught. If I was a sports photographer, which I am not, it would have been fine. Of course, Lindolfi doesn't test his reaction time == presumably one could photograph a stopwatch with an M7, and see how much delay is caused by reaction time,but frankly, this is all meaningless. I have been working with the M9 for seven months, and I have no problem with shutter lag. I speak as someone who has worked with scanning cameras for years, and know what real shutter lag means. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 10, 2011 Share #255 Posted February 10, 2011 Erl, Of course, Lindolfi doesn't test his reaction time == presumably one could photograph a stopwatch with an M7, and see how much delay is caused by reaction time,but frankly, this is all meaningless Reaction time has nothing to do with the test I did. Reaction time is the time it takes to react to an external signal, like stepping on the gas pedal of your car when the traffic light turns green. That takes reaction time. But when you press the shutter of the camera and at the same time the stopwatch with your other hand, there is no reaction time involved. It can be done at the same time, since your brain sends signals to left and right hand at the same time Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjames9142 Posted February 10, 2011 Share #256 Posted February 10, 2011 But in the real world, you see action and then respond to it, and that involves the speed of your reflexes, no ? But I do take your point that the apparent .08 second delay is virtually meaningless in practical photography. We are not doing Harold Edgerton experiments or anything like that I have noticed that the X-1 is totally hopeless in capturing a fugitive moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nafpie Posted February 10, 2011 Share #257 Posted February 10, 2011 ... 0.08 second delay is virtually meaningless in practical photography. In many cases, yes. In some others, not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 10, 2011 Share #258 Posted February 10, 2011 Reaction time while taking pictures is only of importance when you don't see something coming, like when you wait for a bird sticking its head through the hole of a nest. But in the case of basketball you can see the flight of the ball and predict when it will go through the hoop. Reaction time plays no role, just shutter lag and anticipation. And as I said, you can learn to build shutter lag in the timing of your shutter press action. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted February 10, 2011 Share #259 Posted February 10, 2011 ... in the real world, you see action and then respond to it, and that involves the speed of your reflexes, no ? .... I don't think so. If the action is so fast that your success depends in any manner on the shutter lag, you're doomed if you have to rely on reaction, response and reflexes. If it's to be successful, you observe an action, anticipate one particular moment and - from observation and experience - extrapolate the precise point in time when it's to occur. Hence, if you want to take a shot of your watch with the second hand at a particular position, you won't be taken by surprise when the hand "suddenly and unexpectedly" appears at the desired position. Rather, you just wait until the hand is just before the desired point, then you release the shutter. That's where the shutter lag comes in. If it's unpredictable, you won't succeed. If it's too long, you won't succeed often. With most electronic cameras, you depress the release just to the point before it triggers the shutter so that the smallest of pressure will take the shot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted February 10, 2011 Share #260 Posted February 10, 2011 I shot like that is just dumb luck or incredible timing of the shooters reaction time and camera lag which comes with practice.If you were to wait for the ball & bat to make contact with each other you would miss the shot. The ball would have already started on it's way. If you have that fast of a reaction time we should call you Grasshopper. I totally agree with your observations. Maybe I should clarify that I was attempting to 'define' the peak of action, NOT how to capture it. I absolutely accept the fact of shutter lag and how to compensate for it. I must add the 'Grasshopper' title as one of my new personas. I have collected many. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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