marcoma Posted September 11, 2009 Share #1 Posted September 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi - first of all thanks to all the members that are contributing to this Forum... I've been lurking for awhile now whilst NOT having any Leica M to get more familiar with the issues, challenges and rewards of a Rangefinder and this forum (or better all of you) has helped me a great deal in answering questions I didn't even now I would have :-) I am now finding myself really wanting to buy a M (currently only working with DSLR gear and the occasional DLux4 as P+S) but I have to start from scratch... ie. new Body, new Lenses. I've 'played around' at various dealers with the M8.2 over the past weeks and find the 35mm Lux to be my ideal "starter lens" (making it a 47 whatever when taking the crop into consideration). Now my dilemma - Buying a new Leica at this time and not caring about the crop factor (I'm used to it and don't have a FF camera that is digital) I could go for a M8.2 with a 35lux as well as a 50 Zeiss or splurge and go for the M9 with a 50 lux as my only lens... the latter one being obviously more expensive by about 1000GBP. In general I always go with the latest version, but my gut feel tells me that with the Leica M this doesn't necessarily have to be the case... Not having used ANY M series, I would imagine I prefer the small window on top and the sapphire glass on the 8.2 - my print-size goes to no more than A3+ and is for non-professional use. On the other hand, the M9 has a better ISO handling (I never use Flash, only available light so saving a stop or two is important and hence the -lux lens criteria) and is just... well... newer What is Leica's past commitment in terms of support and repair? I was a bit shocked when the M8(.2) production just stopped with the introduction of the 9... and the price-level of M's doesn't allow me a 2 year upgrade cycle (maybe 3-4 years)... Also, why are people complaining about the IR filter issue... once I'd put a filter on (and I don't really use greater Wide Angle than a 28 really) I'd leave it on and forget about it... or does it decrease the image quality (DR) and hence people are now jumping up and down on the non-IR filters for the M9? Appreciate your input! Thanks Marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 Hi marcoma, Take a look here New Leica User dilemma. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wstotler Posted September 11, 2009 Share #2 Posted September 11, 2009 I am now finding myself really wanting to buy a M (currently only working with DSLR gear and the occasional DLux4 as P+S) but I have to start from scratch... ... Also, why are people complaining about the IR filter issue... once I'd put a filter on (and I don't really use greater Wide Angle than a 28 really) I'd leave it on and forget about it... or does it decrease the image quality (DR) and hence people are now jumping up and down on the non-IR filters for the M9? Appreciate your input! Thanks Marco Marco, Welcome to the forum! Based on how you laid out your situation, consider picking up a good-condition, reasonably priced, second-hand M8 from a *reputable* source. I wouldn't buy one new at this point. BUT factors like having a 2-year warranty (not a bad idea for piece of mind) offset cost alone. (But, if you can get a good one at a very reasonable price--let's say half--compared to new, seriously think about it. Even if the camera requires a repair you will likely be ahead of the game, cost-wise.) Others will have opinions about this and advice, if you ask. The IR issue was annoying for many--because using a filter, for some, used goes against the "Leica" aesthetic of a naked lens. (There's also the cost of the filter.) It's only a technical issue when you have strong point sources of light in dark settings (candles burning on a cake in a darkened room, for example) that can cause reflections in the image. I personally do not find it to be a bother. It does not decrease image quality. I like having "protection" in front of the lens. The 35 Summilux is a good starting point. Also, I'd recommend you buy just *one* lens to start and swear off buying another lens for 60 days of M8 use. After you've been shooting for that time you can determine exactly what you might want as a second lens (wider/narrower/etc.) and go get it. There's thread after thread about the "which lens for the second lens" choices to support you. Leica has strong repair capabilities--if it's broken, **they can fix it**. However, they are not cheap (if you're out of warranty), you will likely have to ship to them if your dealer doesn't ship for you, and they are more-often-than-not slow (6+ weeks for a return, depending) to make the repair. General consensus here is that repair times are much slower than they could be. (This is a big complaint--magnified, I think, by price of camera, the fact that it was a new product requiring a repair, the original high number of M8s that had to be sent for repair, and the extra-long wait times associated with that. All that dust has largely settled now. 6 weeks seems to be pretty normal.) Again, you can search threads here to learn more about gripes with Leica service--look at the most recent ones to get a sense of how things are now. Do seriously consider purchasing and using a Leica 1.25x magnifier (or off-brand equivalent)--this will help you nail focus when you're shooting the 35 at f/1.4. It has been my experience with the f/1.2 CV Nokton that having the magnifier really helps when shooting wide open with a narrow DOF. Others' experience varies. I swear by it. Thanks, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 11, 2009 Share #3 Posted September 11, 2009 As a newcomer to Leica i would not bother too much about the camera. In any case the M8 - also the first version which is the cheapest now - is the better option at the moment, if you really wont to rule out a film body (which I think is a fault...) The M8 is a camera whose qualities have been enjoyed and whose faults have been overcome by many users. For someone new in digital photography the biggest problem may be caused by digital postprocessing. With the M8 you may easier learn your own way to handle them, as it shows the limitations of digital photography perhaps clearer than other cameras. At the moment, the M9 is too "fresh". There are quite a few glitches about white-balance, internal processsing etc. to be cleared out by new firmwares and better profiles in Raw-Converters, so in about half a years time you will see a riper product than now. Don't worry about future service for the M8. The new M9 is not a completely different camera (which has already been critized). This fact alone will ensure, that service for the M8 is going on as it goes on for every other Leica. Perhaps the M8 won't be updated with some new features of the M9. Never mind. All M8 users could live without them until 09/09/09. Most important: Leica is all about lenses! When I had a certain sum to spend and to decide about the ratio between camera body and the lenses, i would always give at least 2/3 - better 3/4 - of my money to the lenses. So if you spend less on the body, you get more for lenses which means you get more at all. The combination of 28-summicron, 50-lux, 75-summicron seems to me the ideal option for the M8. You will not throw away these lenses, if you buy a M9 later - but just enjoy them more. The lenses are the head, arms and feet of the body, not the other way round. If you don't want to spend as much, you won't be unhappy with a 35 summicron as single lens. The 35 Summilux is a wonderfuld lens, but you should take some time to test, how it focusses, before you buy it. (Perhaps, perhaps, in one years time, we could see a new version of this lense ; I predicted this for 09/09/09 but I was wrong... So I might be wrong with this prediction again in September 2010, but I am sure, nobody who uses the present 35 Summilux will be wrong.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 11, 2009 Share #4 Posted September 11, 2009 The problem you will have if you go down the M8 route is that you will probably have a nagging thought at the back of your mind that you should have bought an M9. If I were in your position - and spending other people's money is always fun - I'd choose an M9 with a used but recent 50mm Summicron. The M9 has too many advantages over the M8 for me, higher resolution, lower noise, better ergonomics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 11, 2009 Share #5 Posted September 11, 2009 The problem you will have if you go down the M8 route is that you will probably have a nagging thought at the back of your mind that you should have bought an M9. .... That's no problem. That's just pursuit of happiness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted September 11, 2009 Share #6 Posted September 11, 2009 The problem you will have if you go down the M8 route is that you will probably have a nagging thought at the back of your mind that you should have bought an M9. If I were in your position - and spending other people's money is always fun - I'd choose an M9 with a used but recent 50mm Summicron. The M9 has too many advantages over the M8 for me, higher resolution, lower noise, better ergonomics. Same here, except I'd go for a 35mm Summicron - but that's entirely a matter of taste. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 11, 2009 Share #7 Posted September 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) £2K on a s/h M8 or £5K on a new M9, that's your decision. I'm not sure I'd pay the extra for an M8.2. Your lens choice is then driven by which body you choose, assuming you prefer the 50mm focal lenght/crop factor. Right now, I'd look for a good deal on a used M8, from a dealer with a 12 month g'tee. Buy the lens at the same time and bargain hard! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trs Posted September 11, 2009 Share #8 Posted September 11, 2009 Starting with one lens setup worked pretty well for me. It was great way to get used to the system. I think I added 75Cron about 9 months later mostly because of generious discount offer to early adaptors by Leica. I would've gone longer otherwise. I think any lens between 28-50 would work as starting single lens. I thought 28 was best because it felt like I was using my first P&S in early 90s which had range finder like viewfinder. Frameline almost fills the frame on M8. Good luck with your purchase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljclark Posted September 12, 2009 Share #9 Posted September 12, 2009 Same here, except I'd go for a 35mm Summicron - but that's entirely a matter of taste. Ditto. Remember that the apertures for Leica RF lenses go as wide as they do because Leica intends you use them wide open now and then. Back in the manual focus SLR days, we bought 50mm f/1.4 lenses so we could focus them easily, with an actual shooting aperture at least stop smaller. The 35mm Summicron is pretty fearless wide open. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted September 12, 2009 Share #10 Posted September 12, 2009 Hi -first of all thanks to all the members that are contributing to this Forum... I've been lurking for awhile now whilst NOT having any Leica M to get more familiar with the issues, challenges and rewards of a Rangefinder and this forum (or better all of you) has helped me a great deal in answering questions I didn't even now I would have :-) I am now finding myself really wanting to buy a M (currently only working with DSLR gear and the occasional DLux4 as P+S) but I have to start from scratch... ie. new Body, new Lenses. I've 'played around' at various dealers with the M8.2 over the past weeks and find the 35mm Lux to be my ideal "starter lens" (making it a 47 whatever when taking the crop into consideration). Now my dilemma - Buying a new Leica at this time and not caring about the crop factor (I'm used to it and don't have a FF camera that is digital) I could go for a M8.2 with a 35lux as well as a 50 Zeiss or splurge and go for the M9 with a 50 lux as my only lens... the latter one being obviously more expensive by about 1000GBP. In general I always go with the latest version, but my gut feel tells me that with the Leica M this doesn't necessarily have to be the case... Not having used ANY M series, I would imagine I prefer the small window on top and the sapphire glass on the 8.2 - my print-size goes to no more than A3+ and is for non-professional use. On the other hand, the M9 has a better ISO handling (I never use Flash, only available light so saving a stop or two is important and hence the -lux lens criteria) and is just... well... newer What is Leica's past commitment in terms of support and repair? I was a bit shocked when the M8(.2) production just stopped with the introduction of the 9... and the price-level of M's doesn't allow me a 2 year upgrade cycle (maybe 3-4 years)... Also, why are people complaining about the IR filter issue... once I'd put a filter on (and I don't really use greater Wide Angle than a 28 really) I'd leave it on and forget about it... or does it decrease the image quality (DR) and hence people are now jumping up and down on the non-IR filters for the M9? Appreciate your input! Thanks Marco Welcome to this forum. You have already decided to almost use the cash to get you a new M8.2 Why don't you spend a little more, 1k and invest in something totally new (FF, new camera, the future) instead purchasing something that is out of production? If you really can't afford the extra 1k, then just go out and negotiate for a good 2nd hand M8 - if you can find one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wfandrea Posted September 13, 2009 Share #11 Posted September 13, 2009 Welcome to this fine forum! I agree with most opinions already stated. While you do not tell what your budget is, I can tell you from my own experience. I bought a demo M8 from a official Leica-dealer (1 year warranty). Paid a litte less than 1/2 of the new-price. Never had the need for an M8.2, nor for any upgrades (other than firmware). I'm completely happy with the image quality this M8 provides. My prints at A2+ look great. Please also read Rich's site. I has proven a very good info-source for me also as I started like him with a Epson R-D1 digital rangefinder. The lenses I used then, I still own and use on my M8. - Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f1.4 MC - Voigtlander Ultron 28mm f1.9 Aspherical - Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f2.0 collapsible - Leica Tele-Elmarit 90mm f2.8 II - Leica Elmarit 28mm f2.8 ASPH To make a long story short: I'm happy with this outfit. I'd rather invest in glass than in bodies. The M8 is good enough for me. Hope this personal opinion adds to your decision making. Wim Andrea see my foto's on: Silentshutter - The photoblog of W. Andréa Flickr: Wim Andréa's Photostream Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted September 13, 2009 Share #12 Posted September 13, 2009 Go for the M8.2 you will be happy actually with any m8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spylaw4 Posted September 13, 2009 Share #13 Posted September 13, 2009 It's a dilemma isn't it! I have something of the same myself right now. but in your situation I think I would stay with 8/8.2. There will be a lot of good 2nd hand ones coming on the market as people trade up, so that would point me towards the 8.2 given the upgrades over the 8 (but an 8 would be fine -- especially if there was some passport time left). If you have the budget then invest the rest in glass. 35 'cron asph 28/2.8 Leica or Zeiss 50mm Elmar collapsable Good luck and let us know what you choose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
apitong Posted September 13, 2009 Share #14 Posted September 13, 2009 Just get an M8 and a 28 and/or 50 and start shooting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulpenwahn Posted September 14, 2009 Share #15 Posted September 14, 2009 @ marcoma: I am exactly in the same situation as you are. Thank you for your question. I looking forward to reading the forum members' answers... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcoma Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted September 14, 2009 Thank you all for the insights... a lot of very valid points made and I've made up my mind to go with a M8.2 for the following reasons: - I don't need FF - I don't 'need' 18MP for my print sizes - although it would be nice to have - I do prefer the hardened glass (I know, I know... screen protectors...) - I'd like to have a 2 year warranty on it (rules out most M8) - I can get one for almost 2K GBP less than the M9 - It won't improve my photography skills more than a M8 would do I never had a Leica RF and want to find out how it suits me in the first place - I will (as many suggested) rather invest in good glass as that is likely to stick with me... the Body can be replaced down the road in a couple of years... Camera body technology is improving at a much faster pace than lens technology... so my lenses will be more valuable down the road than the (at that time) latest body. Thanks again to everyone and I'll keep you posted on my experiences Ciao Marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSU Posted September 14, 2009 Share #17 Posted September 14, 2009 I have a pair of M8.2's and can find no reason to invest in the M9 other than the one single issue that only with a M9 will I be able to once again use my 21/3.4 Super Angulon as it is intended. For me this is ample justification to eventually acquire the M9. The M8.2 is the only camera I use anymore. I have sold a substantial part of my Nikon DSLR system and what I haven't sold hasn't been touched since I got my first M8.2. I have no complaints with regards to my M8.2's that are significantly addressed by the M9, again, save for the issue of fully using the 21/3.4 SA. Where once I heavily relied on my old 35 Summicron v4 on my M6's, I now use the superb 28 Summicon Asph with seamless results. Where once I used a 90mm on my M6's, I now use the (also) superb 75 Summicron Asph, which is far better than any of the several 90's I've owned. I still have and occasionally use a 90 Tele-Elmarit only because it is very compact and light weight and acceptably sharp closed down a stop but back light must be avoided. The CV 15/4.5 adequately provides the 21mm FoV (actually it images as a 20mm) on my M8.2 even if it does lack the character of the Super Angulon. To repeat, I can't find a compelling reason to make me rush out and buy a M9, my M8.2's get the job done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danyves Posted September 14, 2009 Share #18 Posted September 14, 2009 Second hand M8 with firmware 2.004 (update it yourself) and a 28 summicron would be perfect for a starting point (37mm equivalent) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.