nhabedi Posted September 11, 2009 Share #1 Posted September 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Here are the dimensions of the Leica X1 and its closest competitors according to digitalkamera.de: Leica X1 with lens: 124mm x 60mm x 32mm Sigma DP2 with lens: 113mm x 60mm x 50mm Olympus EP-1 without lens: 120mm x 70mm x 35mm Panasonic GF1 without lens: 119mm x 71mm x 36mm They're all pretty small, but note specifically the 32mm depth of the Leica and don't forget that its sensor is 65% bigger than a FourThirds sensor and that the Sigma lens is also retracting. Except for a few millimeters in each dimension, this camera will have the size and form factor of a tissue pack... The two current "pancake" lenses for the Micro FourThirds system have a shorter focal length because of the smaller sensor and their lengths are 22mm (Olympus 17mm/2.8) and 26mm (Panasonic 20mm/1.7). Note that the Panasonic lens is only six millimeters shorter than the whole depth of the X1... This, I think, explains why Leica decided to use a retracting lens. I was one of those who were initially unhappy about this decision, but if you want a camera that's truly pocketable, then you probably don't have much choice with a sensor that big. I know from experience that the DP1 is already on the verge of being too big for many jacket pockets because of its depth (and in spite of its lens being retractable) and the same holds for example for my old analog Olympus 35 RD (with a non-retractable 40mm/1.7). Obviously, we don't have to agree with this design decision, but to me at least it makes sense if the goal was to create a camera as small as possible with a sensor as large as possible. (And Stefan Daniel was recently quoted as saying that this was Leica's philosophy.) Want a lens which doesn't retract? The camera would be much bigger then. Want a faster lens? The camera would be much bigger then. Want a zoom even? Much, much bigger then. (I'm pretty sure someone will now reply with the dimensions of some compact lens which is faster and smaller and maybe even a zoom. Mind you, that only counts if its real focal length is 24mm, though. Of course you can design smaller lenses if your sensor is tiny.) And this also explains why they didn't have a viewfinder integrated (disappointing many here, me included). The camera would be, again, bigger (and also more expensive) - and I guess 80% or more of their target group wouldn't even use it. Given the really small size and the announced ever-ready case which can hold the accessory finder in a case attached to the strap, I'm beginning to think that I could live with the trade-offs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 Hi nhabedi, Take a look here Trade-offs, or why the lens is the way it is. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
integrale Posted September 11, 2009 Share #2 Posted September 11, 2009 Excellent point! The retractable lens is not exactly "my cup of tea", but it is clearly a marketing decision - and a decision I truly hope Leica has got right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherwood Nash Posted September 11, 2009 Share #3 Posted September 11, 2009 Ditto good points nhabedi! The way you put it makes very good sense, being a camera designer means juggling many balls! Sherwood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljclark Posted September 11, 2009 Share #4 Posted September 11, 2009 Leica's lens choice made sense to me, even without the measurements. (If they consider a zoom in the future, will Leica insist that it is constant aperture?) And this also explains why they didn't have a viewfinder integrated (disappointing many here, me included). The camera would be, again, bigger (and also more expensive) - and I guess 80% or more of their target group wouldn't even use it. Although the target group is slightly different, does anyone know the figures for the Ricoh GX-100/200? How many cameras were sold initially as kits with the EVF vs. those sold without? (And then, how many EVFs were sold later?) (I use the EVF on my GX-100. It certainly isn't high quality video, but it allows me to frame with the camera to my eye, and also presents important data. I don't need more than that, and the finder does slip off when you don't need/want it.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted September 11, 2009 Although the target group is slightly different, does anyone know the figures for the Ricoh GX-100/200? How many cameras were sold initially as kits with the EVF vs. those sold without? (And then, how many EVFs were sold later?) I don't know and I doubt anyone outside Ricoh does. It surely would be interesting to have the information, though. Especially for Leica... (I use the EVF on my GX-100. It certainly isn't high quality video, but it allows me to frame with the camera to my eye, and also presents important data. I don't need more than that, and the finder does slip off when you don't need/want it.) I've used both the GX-200 and the Panasonic G1 with their EVFs. For me, the one on the GX-200 was barely acceptable while the one on the G1 is quite good most of the time but can be a real dog in low-light conditions - I guess the accessory one on the GF1 will be similar. I'd rather have the GX-200 EVF than no viewfinder at all, but I'd prefer a bright OVF. I think Leica has repeatedly stated that they think current EVF technology is not good enough for their standards, so that again seems to be a design decision we have to live with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 11, 2009 Share #6 Posted September 11, 2009 And this also explains why they didn't have a viewfinderintegrated (disappointing many here, me included). The camera would be, again, bigger (and also more expensive) - and I guess 80% or more of their target group wouldn't even use it. The base price would have been more yes, but as most users will want the finder it probably works out more expensive (that Leica finder isn't going to be cheap, what £250?). Then as it will be mounted on the hotshoe all the time - unless more powerful flash is called for and one has to revert to the dreaded LCD - it makes the camera bigger all the time. I think Leica have made a bit of a halfway house camera. Something to tempt new Leica customers used to higher end P&S cameras, so keep the layout familiar (powered lens, wheels to set aperture, focus, LCD viewfinder etc) and ease them into shooting rangefinder style with the optical finder which they can add later. The sad part is that it falls way short of what people like me were hoping for, a more serious digital compact with basic 'mechanical' controls such as an aperture and focus ring, optical viewfinder, fixed lens with a filter thread etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted September 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The base price would have been more yes, but as most users will want the finder... That exactly is the point I don't believe and it seems Leica doesn't believe it either. Yes, I would want a viewfinder, and you would want one, and maybe even the majority of those who hang around on this forum. But I still stand by my estimate that the vast majority (80% give or take) of those who will eventually buy the X1 won't ever miss a viewfinder. Heck, digital has been around so long that lots of people don't even know what a viewfinder is. All they know are digicams with LCD screens... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatboy Posted September 11, 2009 Share #8 Posted September 11, 2009 This, I think, explains why Leica decided to use a retracting lens. I was one of those who were initially unhappy about this decision, butif you want a camera that's truly pocketable, then you probably don't have much choice with a sensor that big. I know from experience that the DP1 is already on the verge of being too big for many jacket pockets because of its depth (and in spite of its lens being retractable) and the same holds for example for my old analog Olympus 35 RD (with a non-retractable 40mm/1.7). I was also expecting the X1 to be non-retracting, and this is a big appeal of the GF1/EP1 with their primes. There is the potential for virtual instant power up and the GF1/EP1 are ready to go like a DSLR. The DP2 is slow here. Question is how quick is the X1 from power switch on to ready to go? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted September 11, 2009 Share #9 Posted September 11, 2009 Question is how quick is the X1 from power switch on to ready to go? Quicker than extending the collapsible lens on a Leica I. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share #10 Posted September 11, 2009 Here are the dimensions of the Leica X1 and its closest competitorsaccording to digitalkamera.de: Leica X1 with lens: 124mm x 60mm x 32mm Sigma DP2 with lens: 113mm x 60mm x 50mm Olympus EP-1 without lens: 120mm x 70mm x 35mm Panasonic GF1 without lens: 119mm x 71mm x 36mm I've looked at some of the published X1 product photos again, and assuming that the hotshoe must be the same size on all models, the 32mm depth of the X1 must be without lens. I still think that my conclusions are valid, but I apologize for spreading "false information" which certainly wasn't my intention. Seems the X1 is very much like the DP2, but a bit wider. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 11, 2009 Share #11 Posted September 11, 2009 Quicker than extending the collapsible lens on a Leica I. Not so - I certainly don't collapse the lens on my lllf after every few mins, only when I'm finished shooting and its going into the bag. No doubt the X1 will decide to shut down just as 'that' shot presents itself! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share #12 Posted September 11, 2009 No doubt the X1 will decide to shut down just as 'that' shot presents itself! That's what the DP1 for example does, and it's a pain in the ass. I hope that Leica at least provides the option to disable this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceflynn Posted September 11, 2009 Share #13 Posted September 11, 2009 That's what the DP1 for example does, and it's a pain in the ass. I hope that Leica at least provides the option to disable this. There is always hope that there will be this menu item: Disable PITA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share #14 Posted September 22, 2009 No doubt the X1 will decide to shut down just as 'that' shot presents itself! OK, as you had "no doubt" about it I decided to ask Leica and received an email reply today. I was told the lens of the X1 will not retract into the body when the camera goes to sleep (or switches to energy save mode or whatever you want to call it). This is different from for example the DP1 - see my remark about PITA above. Good news as far as I am concerned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveleo Posted September 22, 2009 Share #15 Posted September 22, 2009 slightly off topic, but the X1 is a pretty small camera. my iiif body is 136X68X36 and i think THAT is small and very handle-able. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgenper Posted September 22, 2009 Share #16 Posted September 22, 2009 OK, as you had "no doubt" about it I decided to ask Leica and received an email reply today. I was told the lens of the X1 will not retract into the body when the camera goes to sleep (or switches to energy save mode or whatever you want to call it). This is different from for example the DP1 - see my remark about PITA above. Good news as far as I am concerned. INDEED! If only the surrounding ring can be unscrewed (ala DL4) and replaced with an adapter tube for physical protection, most of my resistance starts melting away.... But I still would prefer a MF solution that lets me set a numerical distance without even powering up the camera - like the Digilux 2! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackart Posted September 22, 2009 Share #17 Posted September 22, 2009 retractable lens is nothing new in leica Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicpeh Posted September 22, 2009 Share #18 Posted September 22, 2009 On the DL4, the lens actually retracts when zooming to the telephoto end. Therefore, if Leica wants to implement a zoom lens on a future X2, I believe it will not adversely affect the size. Of course, I believe maintaining the same aperture with a zoom lens may not be possible; but f/2.8~4.0 for a 28mm to 70mm lens is still good for many people, I gather. On the preproduction model I tried, start up is almost instantaneous, no lag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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