Bit of an anti-climax?

[corrado&rina]

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Am I the only one really enthusiastic about the products presented?

 

1) M9 sounds and looks like the camera we have been asking for quite a while. Definitively my ideal camera on paper, I am waiting to see some real life test. The few shots I have seen around at the ISO I am most likely to use beat hands down any other camera I know of, particularly because of the lenses, and the ability to use true wide angles. The only alternatives would be D3 or EOS 1 MK IIII, but they are more expensive, and the wide angles are not even nearly as good.

 

2) I am not sure you really need very high ISO, when you have Noctilux lenses .... I remember people complaining about the high ISO performance of DLUX4, but I have never had to shoot a picture above ISO 400 and If I shoot at ISO 80 / 24mm equiv./f2.0 in interior, it gives some really incredible results ....

 

3) The S2 looks like a great piece of kit, and a very interesting compromise, particularly for portrait, serious macro (I do mostly botanic shoots), still life, landscape .... no sport or large wildlife (birds upwards) .... still we have to see some proper picture taken in real life conditions. Pity for the price, which puts it out of reach ....

 

4) X1 looks very interesting: portable, great output .... it needs some tuning though.... my wife is going to drool after it .... I think an X2 with intechangeable lenses would be great (full weather proofing would be really nice as well ....)

 

I enjoyed the web conference but I would have actually much preferred a web conference from Solm, in German, with subtitles (Leica, are you listening????). I really hope they are not going to spend any more time or money on marketing: I would much prefer them to spend time and money on product development.

 

I liked the language of the presentation: prepared, clear and precise, no fuss, not too much carry-on or music or balloons .... it reminded me of why I like their products: rugged german reliability with a bauhaus flare, The day the presentations become too polished I will start seriously worrying ....

 

I did no know anything about M9 and X1 beforehand and I was really surprised by the M9 announcement .... maybe I have been away from the forum for too long!

[ho_co]

c&r--

You're not the only one enthusiastic. One of the typical 'jobs' that the forum has 'assigned' itself is to complain.

 

Good thing you were away for awhile! I bet the announcements came as a surprise to a lot of people. But I'm sure you've seen just the tip of the iceberg of M9 speculation that's been going on in the forum for months.

 

I agree about the three products, but I also think they'd have been better served by saving the money for the New York get-together. That's an interesting choice, and I wonder why they made that choice instead of Solms.

 

To me they sounded almost prepared. Not German zack-zack precision. They're not a marketing company, and this intro was fine as it stands, but I've been spoiled by watching the carefully choreographed and rehearsed Apple intros that Steve Jobs does.

 

They did themselves proud by introducing products that show they're in touch with both the current market and the Leica tradition. I just feel the production values of the presentation could have been better.

 

But since Leica is based on products instead of marketing, I may be off-base in this opinion.

[tmanley]

Leica has to improve their marketing. .

 

I think having everybody in the world who knows anything about Leica tuned in at 9 AM on 09/09/2009 is pretty good marketing. There were some slight leaks that only added to the interest. Way to go Leica! I would not have had a celebrity dominate half of the broadcast, but that's just me! I would have had a famous photojournalist or documentary photographer. I assume that they thought Seal would increase the interest? I hope so, too, but we'll see.

 

Tina

 

Tina Manley

[stunsworth]

I think having everybody in the world who knows anything about Leica tuned in at 9 AM on 09/09/2009 is pretty good marketing

 

The server couldn't keep up, that was unfortunate but perhaps is also an indication of the popularity of the broadcast.

 

People have referred to the rather stilted delivery by Stefan Daniels, perhaps next time he should do the presentation in fluent German <grin>.

[earleygallery]

From what I've seen of the webcast they presented better in English than I could in German

 

They could have hired a professional presenter but they are best placed to talk about their products and came over as nice genuine guys, but a presentations refresher course might have been a good idea. Getting Seal to talk was a good idea, and will no doubt get them more general press coverage.

[ericperlberg]

I think having everybody in the world who knows anything about Leica tuned in at 9 AM on 09/09/2009 is pretty good marketing. There were some slight leaks that only added to the interest. Way to go Leica! I would not have had a celebrity dominate half of the broadcast, but that's just me! I would have had a famous photojournalist or documentary photographer. I assume that they thought Seal would increase the interest? I hope so, too, but we'll see.

 

Tina

 

Tina Manley

 

That everybody in the world tuned in is exactly why I made my point. They didn't make good use of a great opportunity.

 

I think your idea of marketing and my idea of marketing are quite different. I am not talking about balloons and rock music and celebrity guest speakers (oh wait, they did that... a poor choice in my opinion).

 

The marketing I'm talking about is delivering a well thought out message in a compelling way that communicates effectively to its intended audience. I for one did not feel they did a good job of communication. It was an amateur production on a big stage at a time when Leica must widen its audience and communicate clearly its core message so it can make money and survive, and hopefully thrive.

 

Just one small example of why I say it was amateurish. There were maybe 100 people in the room. To be sure, they were journalists in the room invited because they are influential in getting out the message and so above the speaker's head they had slides showing strong Leica style images. Presumably they were to create a visual link to Leica's traditional values.

 

There were probably tens of thousands of people if not more watching the web cast either live or later who will comment to their friends on Twitter, Facebook and all the usual places as well as their own blogs. Opinions and impressions as well as facts will radiate out from the event like ripples from a stone thrown into smooth water.

 

But in the web cast sometimes the webcast camera showed you the slides and other times you saw the speaker looking back over their shoulder at the slides even as they were talking to the audience and more importantly to the camera. That's amateurish and not a good way to deliver a message. It's not fluff and balloons and celeb endorsements I'm talking about, its good communication skills.

 

In fact, Leica has a long history of excellent presentation skills in their printed marketing material clearly done by skilled graphic designers (ie very expensive) in the classic Swiss International style. I've done this work, its meticulous and time consuming. Believe me its expensive. Same for Leica boxes. Have you noticed they use silver paper with black printing over it on their boxes? Do you think this is cheap? It doesn't get more expensive.

 

Want to hazard a guess how much time and money goes into designing the M8 box, how the parts to the package will be stacked, how the cardboard will be folded, how many committee meetings are involved in such details as your experience of opening your new camera's box and the order of materials you'll experience, what it feels like, etc? That's marketing. And just like the slightly edgy documentary style images of a Cuban fighter in the new brochure ties the viewer to Leica's history, they had a golden opportunity to communicate those values to the world. In fact they tried. But it was amateurish and in today's sophisticated marketplace that's not good enough. So I said they need to improve their marketing skills.

 

From the way you characterised my point I think you missed it entirely.

[Angora]

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After 28 years of loyal Leica R ownership through thick and thin, it has come to that. Oh well...

 

Yes Conrad... when the announcements were released I was quite disappointed.

"I've been waiting for so long for... this? Who the hell cares about the X1; where is my freaking R10???".

 

Marketing-wise, the X1 makes sense.

But R users are left wondering why has Leica made so much efforts in direction of the X1, while there is nothing for them.

[storybrown]

As I most likely will not be buying any of the three offerings since they're not targeting my needs, I'm left to wonder amongst the latest offerings from other brands. After 28 years of loyal Leica R ownership through thick and thin, it has come to that. Oh well...

 

I'm an R person, too. A DMR-type development would be great.

 

From all I've read or heard about the M9 -- admittedly mostly from people who haven't used it very much or even at all, except for Seal -- it's going to be great. I don't doubt it for a moment. But I'm not going to pay $7-8K for a camera. Some kinds of pros might, other kinds won't. As Seal affably indicated, some kinds of "lifestyle" types might, who appreciate the "brand." Good. I'm not a "lifestyle" type & I'm not the kind pro who depends for his bread upon his fotos & for that needs such a thing. I've sold a few fotos, and had a few in minor exhibitions, and had a couple of little magazine covers. The cameras used in each case are not the point -- they were all of them & their lenses all-put-together less than an M9 body (my used R8 came later). Certainly, I hope that everyone who wants an M9 gets one, and I'm sure there will be many. If so, it may keep Leica in the game, and to an extent the margins might be necessary for this.

 

Who's going to buy an X1 -- or any view screen-only, arms extended P&S -- for $2K? My Digilux 2 (& C-Lux 2, esp for in-pocket carry) are fine for P&S, & the Digilux 2 has the rest PLUS a sufficient if not excellent EVF. For those who don't have a Digilux 2, which is most of the world, there are many -- plenty -- other attractive options. I have no doubt at all that the X1 is of high quality, and that alone is a marketing plus, but -- in spite of some who know more than I do saying that it could be a must-have camera -- it looks a little like a white elephant to me, not as a real "quality" item but as a significant "consumer" item. I may be mistaken. Certainly, I hope Leica succeeds with it, though I expect in the end this will come to mean not losing much on it.

 

The S2 is apparently a great thing. MF doubtless blows away all 35mm; and if its as handy as claimed, it will be a big deal for pros who need & use lots of MF, and will also prolly significantly expand MF usage. I don't need or want one, but I've no doubt either that many of those who do need MF will welcome this and that, if so, the market will quickly follow across the board & a new era of tech development will spread (or stampede) in that direction generally. Leica will have led, once again, but then it will of course be a matter of keeping up. Be that as it may, one can only hope that Leica succeeds as it wishes in the short term, which it needs to do, and we'll see about the long term as we get there.

 

The show after the viral build-up was a little bit anticlimactic -- prolly that was to be expected -- and a little technically underfixed, but it was solid & sober. I like Seal. I might have liked a foto-type or types for the non-executive part of the show -- say, the editor of Arizona Hwys or Nat'l Geographic (or a Japanese or other equivalent) for the S2 (or Elizabeth whats-her-name, the MF/LF great), Salgado or etc (Matt Stuart, Tom Stoddardt -- you choose) for the M9, & whoever else -- editor of Shutterbug, or etc -- for the X. Anyway, the general idea was terrific -- next time, I agree with those who have said it ought to be announced from the world photographic center in Solms with net & proper youtube hookups & subtitles.

 

Setting aside the groupie effect of the virulism, which (though surely useful) sets one up a little superficially for a shortfall, I thought the whole was good, and good for Leica, and FWIW I congratulate them.

 

Now for keeping up with the quality control & quick repair . . .

[ho_co]

... I would not have had a celebrity dominate half of the broadcast, but that's just me! I would have had a famous photojournalist or documentary photographer. I assume that they thought Seal would increase the interest? ...

Tina--

I think Seal is an accomplished photographer as well as a celebrity. I think he's had a couple one-man shows, one very recently in Paris.

 

He's not in my bailiwick either, though he seemed a very gracious person.

 

I think the thing we're all saying is, "tighten it up." Problems with lights and mics, with what to do with the second camera, more time spent talking than showing.

 

Not complaining, but I don't think anyone who saw it once will watch it a second time.

 

All nice guys, knowledgeable, outgoing, cordial; but wouldn't a link to a 15-minute prepared presentation have done as well for us in the web audience?

 

But from Leica's pov, it's a press intro of three solid new products. They made the effort to come to the US instead of flying the US press corps (or is that press corpse? ) to Hawaii for a week, so it's good use of their money; and tying us in was a courteous afterthought.

[sdai]

I'm surprised that Dita von Teese wasn't part of the webcast ... guess how popular she is in Germany.

 

Germany, US ... buddy buddy.

[rob_x2004]

...a celebrity dominate half of the broadcast...

 

Indicative of the market demographic. I will be impressed when I see press boys sling two Mdigital clanking together out of the boot all dented and scraped to get on with business.

[marknorton]

HC

 

The way I read is that the marketing people have said, $7000 is tops after the D3x pricing furore and given the state of the US (especially) economy. Leica have stripped cost out of the camera to get there - the sapphire screen cover, no top cover display, painted finishes of questionable durability and so on.

 

The fact that Herr Spiller talked about brassing (though it came across as brazing) suggests Leica thinks it's fine for the camera to look scruffy after a time. I don't nurse my cameras, I don't abuse them either but I expect them to be able to stand up to a reasonable level of wear and tear and peeling paint and scratched LCD screens are not acceptable.

 

I would have like to see a display on the top panel - there doesn't appear to be any audible warning of the battery level so you run the risk, unless you are checking it often, of the battery suddenly dying. It's a bit like driving a car with the fuel gauge in the trunk. The fatal flaw in their logic is that the very act of checking the battery - waking up the camera, switching on the LCD backlight - just accelerates the demise of the battery.

 

I'm pleased to see Leica have added a shorter auto-time-off period (1 minute) which was a suggestion I made to them after my work on the M8 power consumption - though I don't of course claim that was the reason they did it.

 

I would much rather have spent, say, 10% more on this camera, even 20%, and have Leica do it properly.

[mgcd]

Just for the record, I hate "brassing". I moved to Leica in 1981 partly because it was one of the only ones, if not the only, offering black chrome finish. It was superior and much longer lasting than any brass and black paint. It still is. So to have the virtues of traditional "brassing" extolled at the presentation was frankly odd from my perspective...

 

There I said it

[ho_co]

Thanks, Mark. Good analysis as usual.

 

Didn't the original Volkswagens lack gas gauges completely? You knew you were out when the car stopped. There was a lever (in the passenger compartment, no need to get out) that when flipped released an extra gallon into the fuel tank.

 

There's an idea Leica could follow.

[dpattinson]

I would have like to see a display on the top panel - there doesn't appear to be any audible warning of the battery level so you run the risk, unless you are checking it often, of the battery suddenly dying. It's a bit like driving a car with the fuel gauge in the trunk. The fatal flaw in their logic is that the very act of checking the battery - waking up the camera, switching on the LCD backlight - just accelerates the demise of the battery.

Apparently there are optional audible warnings for both battery level and SD card fill, at least according to Brett when I spoke to him at Red Dot today.

[hamey]

Why didn't they hold it in Disneyland!

 

Lol.

 

Ken.

[Jamie Roberts]

{Snipped}

I would have like to see a display on the top panel - there doesn't appear to be any audible warning of the battery level so you run the risk, unless you are checking it often, of the battery suddenly dying. It's a bit like driving a car with the fuel gauge in the trunk.{snipped}

 

I'm actually glad they've made it as cheap as possible. It's going to be a stretch for me to get 2 of these things

 

As for the battery gauge, I hear what you're saying, but I'm usually so caught up in shooting (and it's often so dark) that I often run the battery right down. Lovely, eh?

[rick_dykstra]

People have referred to the rather stilted delivery by Stefan Daniels, perhaps next time he should do the presentation in fluent German <grin>.

 

Stefan's English is infinitely better than my German.

 

I thought he and the boss did well. It was understated, intended for an learned audience that already knew the story they were telling. More of a celebration than a product launch.

 

I didn't see the Seal part. As accomplished a musician as he is, I would have preferred involvement of a top photojournalist and/or fashion photographer. You tend not to see photographers launching new digital keyboards!

[bjmike]

I think having everybody in the world who knows anything about Leica tuned in at 9 AM on 09/09/2009 is pretty good marketing.

Tina Manley

 

Well, I agree. If only it had actually worked. At least for me, after a direct invitation from Leica (and I DID register), I couldn't get any online connection w/them at all. Maybe too much traffic or something. Oh, well -- it wan't exactly a major crisis.

 

My reactions? The M9 looks pretty cool, altho not in my budget at the moment. The X1 leaves me flat. Nice camera; US$2,000 is way over the top for a limited-use tool. I may try a Canon G10 or G11 for a sorta digital-rangefinder that seems to have acceptable IQ, is portable, not plasticky, and has a modicum of analogue controls.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jackart]

My interest was the x-1 but a fixed 24 point and shoot for $2k, no thanks.

I'll keep the d-lux4.

 

I shoot D-Lux 4 and will buy X1 as soon as possible. Why?

 

1. X1 APS-C has almost 7 times the area of D-Lux 4 1/1,6" tiny-tiny sensor. Pixel density of small sensor causes noise and low sensitivity. Due to that, image quality in not so perfect light situations is much better.

 

 

2. Fix lens offers superior image quality compared to zooms. For me, Leica lens equals to hi quality fix lens.

 

I really looked forward to get hands on new Panasonic GF1 M4/3, but X1 was much better suprise for me. So, I will definately buy one.

 

Jaak