plasticman Posted September 8, 2009 Share #41 Posted September 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) No, emphatically NO. In 2000 we were f...ing around with 300kpix webcam like things, about 4 or 5 years ago everyone was drooling at 5 Mpix, 2006ish around 10M, 2009 about 20M and stabilising. If they offered me a free 40M or 80M or etc. size sensor I would not want it. Actually they should offer a FF 10M version of the M9 with higher DR and even faster image processing. That would be about it (for me) - the perfect image making machine. I'm not sure I understand the point you're making - do you agree or disagree with Nick's standpoint? No-one expects or wants a continuation of the megapixel race, but the development of sensors with much greater dynamic range and more accurate color and naturally better high-ISO performance will continue for the foreseeable future. Anyone saying now that the M9 will be their 'camera for a lifetime' is being hopelessly naive imho - the habituated early-adopters will have forgotten these statements when they line-up to be the first owners of the M10 and M11. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 8, 2009 Posted September 8, 2009 Hi plasticman, Take a look here M9: An Investment for a Lifetime. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
thrid Posted September 8, 2009 Share #42 Posted September 8, 2009 It's definitely not a camera for a lifetime. No digital camera is that for at least two reason. - It's a computer in a small box and in terms of technology will be surpassed in a few years. - Even if you were happy with the performance 5 years from now, no matter what else appears on the market you still face one major problem. Unlike a mechanical M, there will be no spare parts for the M9 in a few years. You could machine parts for an film M, but you're not going to be able to manufacture one off electronic components for the M9. Certain electronic components (LCD) degrade naturally with age, so failure is only a matter of time. It may take a while, but it will fail eventually. On paper the M9 looks like it should deliver competitive performance for the next 3 -5 years. I can see someone being perfectly happy with the M9 for a solid 5 years, because... As several people have pointed out, Bayer pattern sensors have reached a performance plateau and any increases in performance will be incremental, until we see a major shift in technology that suddenly delivers a massive boost in areas like dynamic range etc. I think Nikon, Canon etc are aware of this and are working on new sensor technology. They need something new to put in their ads, so you'll buy a new camera. Squeezing a few more MP in to the same old technology is no longer cutting it. I suspect we'll see the fruits of this R&D in one or two product cycles, so 2 - 5 years? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted September 8, 2009 Share #43 Posted September 8, 2009 I think Nikon, Canon etc are aware of this and are working on new sensor technology. They need something new to put in their ads, so you'll buy a new camera I'm as cynical about our consumption-driven society as anyone, but the disparagement of Canon and Nikon for their development efforts is really, really tiresome. Naturally Leica's research and development is focussed on the betterment of humanity. They don't want you to buy new cameras - that's just a regrettable by-product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 8, 2009 Share #44 Posted September 8, 2009 It will be some time. The Imagex "digital film cassette"was a real flop. By the time it will be technologically possible there might be too few film cameras outside musea around to make it economically viable Apart the M Leicas, of course... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Henri Klein Posted September 8, 2009 Share #45 Posted September 8, 2009 life is short. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efftee Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share #46 Posted September 8, 2009 It's definitely not a camera for a lifetime. No digital camera is that for at least two reason. - It's a computer in a small box and in terms of technology will be surpassed in a few years. - Even if you were happy with the performance 5 years from now, no matter what else appears on the market you still face one major problem. Unlike a mechanical M, there will be no spare parts for the M9 in a few years. You could machine parts for an film M, but you're not going to be able to manufacture one off electronic components for the M9. Certain electronic components (LCD) degrade naturally with age, so failure is only a matter of time. It may take a while, but it will fail eventually. On paper the M9 looks like it should deliver competitive performance for the next 3 -5 years. I can see someone being perfectly happy with the M9 for a solid 5 years, because... As several people have pointed out, Bayer pattern sensors have reached a performance plateau and any increases in performance will be incremental, until we see a major shift in technology that suddenly delivers a massive boost in areas like dynamic range etc. I think Nikon, Canon etc are aware of this and are working on new sensor technology. They need something new to put in their ads, so you'll buy a new camera. Squeezing a few more MP in to the same old technology is no longer cutting it. I suspect we'll see the fruits of this R&D in one or two product cycles, so 2 - 5 years? Good point(s). That said, 5 years seems to be a little short for parts, even electronic, to be worn beyond functional use, especially for a make as reliable as a Leica. I have an old Olympus Camedia C2500, which must be 10 years old now, and other than the fact that its 2.5MP pictures are ridiculed by most cellphone cameras today, everything else is still working! So whilst I'd tend to agree that the M9 is probably not heirloom material, it could still be the last M-camera for some people, possibly me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
egibaud Posted September 8, 2009 Share #47 Posted September 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) from a purely investment point of view, it is probably more prudent to purchase a new noctilux than to purchase an M9. Or my Noctilux 1.0 that is only 2 years old :-) it is for sale at 3600 Euros :-))) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efftee Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share #48 Posted September 8, 2009 from a purely investment point of view, it is probably more prudent to purchase a new noctilux than to purchase an M9. No offence, but frankly, I don't think there's prudence in buying either! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted September 8, 2009 Share #49 Posted September 8, 2009 I'm not sure I understand the point you're making - do you agree or disagree with Nick's standpoint? No-one expects or wants a continuation of the megapixel race, but the development of sensors with much greater dynamic range and more accurate color and naturally better high-ISO performance will continue for the foreseeable future. Anyone saying now that the M9 will be their 'camera for a lifetime' is being hopelessly naive imho - the habituated early-adopters will have forgotten these statements when they line-up to be the first owners of the M10 and M11. The current dynamic range of the senors is pretty much limited by physics - you can't work around that. What you can do is to use pixel binning but then you are effectively reducing the no. pixels in postprocessing. Higher DR => less pixels, one way or the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted September 8, 2009 Share #50 Posted September 8, 2009 The current dynamic range of the senors is pretty much limited by physics - you can't work around that. What you can do is to use pixel binning but then you are effectively reducing the no. pixels in postprocessing. Higher DR => less pixels, one way or the other. Current sensors are near their practical limit of sensitivityin terms of photons per sensor element - but that's not the same as dynamic range. Is there a reason it's not possible to make sensors with what one might call deeper buckets that accept more photons before "overflowing" (clipping), so as to improve dynamic range at the highlight end? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted September 8, 2009 Share #51 Posted September 8, 2009 Current sensors are near their practical limit of sensitivityin terms of photons per sensor element - but that's not the same as dynamic range. Is there a reason it's not possible to make sensors with what one might call deeper buckets that accept more photons before "overflowing" (clipping), so as to improve dynamic range at the highlight end?Hmmmm. Possibly, but the main problem AFAIK is the low light side of the equation. I guess they could start introducing cooled sensor technology, that would help, but at a big cost in power consumption. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted September 8, 2009 Share #52 Posted September 8, 2009 I'm as cynical about our consumption-driven society as anyone, but the disparagement of Canon and Nikon for their development efforts is really, really tiresome. Naturally Leica's research and development is focussed on the betterment of humanity. They don't want you to buy new cameras - that's just a regrettable by-product. Disparagement? Who's disparaging them? I'm not sure what you are getting at. These are businesses and they need to sell you new products to stay in business. You're not going to buy yesterdays newspaper today. There's nothing unethical about Canon/Nikon/Leica or everyone else striving to design something new you are going to want to buy. That's just capitalism. Read what I wrote, again. I'm saying that Bayer technology has reached a plateau. Digital camera technology is maturing. The rate of progress is slowing and the advances are incremental, not leaps and bounds, as in past years. Therefore there is less urgency to upgrade as often as in the past. 18-24MP with good DR is plenty for commercial work. You don't need more resolution then that to print even a two page ad in a magazine. There is no reason why you could not produce perfectly viable work with an M9, D3x or 1ds-3 for the next few years. We are at the point where you could probably get away with sitting out one product cycle and your clients would never know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted September 8, 2009 Share #53 Posted September 8, 2009 Good point(s). That said, 5 years seems to be a little short for parts, even electronic, to be worn beyond functional use, especially for a make as reliable as a Leica. A lifetime. Were talking about a few decades here... ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted September 8, 2009 Share #54 Posted September 8, 2009 Hmmmm. Possibly, but the main problem AFAIK is the low light side of the equation. I guess they could start introducing cooled sensor technology, that would help, but at a big cost in power consumption. I don't think there's much that can be done at the low-light end: we seem already to be down to single-digit photon counts and even a cold sensor can't do much to improve the S/N ratio down there. But additional DR would still be handy even if it's all at the highlight end. It would be great more DR than colour neg film at an EI of 200 or 400, and losing two or three stops DR at high EI (as one tends to) would still leave plenty for most purposes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted September 8, 2009 Share #55 Posted September 8, 2009 It's stupid to get into slogans promising people a lifetime camera. It was that way with film Leica. And it still is with the lenses. But not a digital camera. I remember in 1986 when buying the first Macintosh 512K with external Bernoullie 5MB drive, that this machine was so powerful it would last beyond year 2000. I'm sure it lasted and still exist somewhere, but I bought a new one a few years later. And have always been happy with the new capabilities and the more speed, nicer screens, etc. But I've always remembered the Apple seller who stated this remark which at the time sounded reasonable, but over time has become more and more a laugh. What Leica should say and be proud about is that Leica glass holds a lifetime, always has been fullframe and works on both film and digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted September 8, 2009 Share #56 Posted September 8, 2009 Disparagement? Who's disparaging them? I'm not sure what you are getting at.These are businesses and they need to sell you new products to stay in business. You're not going to buy yesterdays newspaper today. There's nothing unethical about Canon/Nikon/Leica or everyone else striving to design something new you are going to want to buy. That's just capitalism. Thanks for explaining capitalism to me. I've always wondered. Anyway, I was taking exception to the apparent disparagement in the phrase that you used in the previous post: "They need something new to put in their ads, so you'll buy a new camera." Simple as that. But while I do appreciate you taking the time to explain some of the fundamental tenets of modern society to me, we're taking the thread off-topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efftee Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share #57 Posted September 8, 2009 A lifetime. Were talking about a few decades here...;-) You know, I do agree with most here who also think that 'Investment for a Lifetime' is too big a bite even for Leica to swallow. It just got me thinking if the M9 could possibly be the last M-cam that I'd buy. It's kinda like a wife, I suppose. Her parts may not last decades too and even if they do, you'd be settling for um... limited functionality and uh... operating at reduced efficiency. Not to mention new and better women keep coming along, a lifetime is a long time to be spending with the same one woman! Yet, it happens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Root Posted September 8, 2009 Share #58 Posted September 8, 2009 And the back can come off a M6 & M7 for the lcd, not to mention the removal of the backs can provide more electronic real estate. This is a good idea that should not be discredited because the idea flopped back in the dark ages of 2002. I do not know if technology is here yet for this to happen, but if not it is certainly close. Scott !!! I find exciting that there is someone who dares to expose an idea that me too had, and didn't post for fear of being ridiculized... ; I explain it:- Basically, any 35 mm camera has the physical space to insert the volume of two film cassettes and a strip of film between them: let's start by this fact. - Someday, there will be the tech for the above space can accomodate a very thin sensor + electronics + power + microstorage device. - Very few settings (ISO + simple WB/°K) operated accessing directly the device (this means to open the camera... annoying but less than with film inside ) - Of course... no embedded LCD... BUT...why not a wireless separated LCD (an accessory) if and when you want it ? - Minimal processing power and software on board : RAW only, a proper developer Software included in the kit. - And, maybe... two version of the device : B&W and Color... Is it so foolish to think it could be possible ? - Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted September 8, 2009 Share #59 Posted September 8, 2009 Page 33. Section (3) Enduring Performance and Value. In short: The Leica M9 is an investment for a lifetime. Big Claim. I think Leica Camera AG / marketing needs to come to terms with the fact that as long the product they are representing is digital, then it is limited to the product lifetime, not the lifetime of an end user. My M6, MP-3, M3's, Nikon FM3A, Hasselblad 500 CM's, indeed products that will last me my lifetime and beyond. But digital is digital and even if 18 MP / ISO 2,500 in an M9 is all you could want for, at some point, like in ten years from now, it will be greatly eclipsed by the technological juggernaut. Ten years from now in terms of the experience of putting black and white film in my film M's will be eclipsed by nothing, for the desire to engage in that has nothing to do with digital. All this said, I am fairly confident that if the M9 delivers as one would hope, I see no reason to want for more in a digital M until the next version comes out. And if that took 3-5 years, I would be more than fine with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted September 8, 2009 Share #60 Posted September 8, 2009 But digital is digital and even if 18 MP / ISO 2,500 in an M9 is all you could want for, at some point, like in ten years from now, it will be greatly eclipsed by the technological juggernaut. Yes, just think of the LCD screen on the back. Unlikely there won't be an update of that in terms of quality and size over the coming years. Also buffer, battery time, memory card type and other "items" on a digital camera will be changed over time. So don't buy M9 for life, buy it for life quality and enjoy it to bits till something better comes about Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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